Week: USA ignored Putin's concerns about NATO and provoked war in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by vis, May 11, 2022.

  1. vis

    vis Banned

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    There is an article in the journal week with analysis of reasons for the war in Ukraine.
    It is clear from the article that NATO is a purely defensive organization like many try to present. NATO had used military force in Bosnia and Kosovo in 1999 even though the Article 5 collective defense commitment was not directly at stake. In 2011, NATO again used military force outside the purview of Article 5, this time against Libya. The NATO-enforced no-fly zone resulted in a regime change operation.
    Whether or not NATO threatened Russia, Putin believed it did, and this belief informed his decision to invade. Moreover, Putin's concerns were predictable, and the war might have been averted had Washington taken them seriously.
    Even if NATO were a "defensive alliance," Ukraine's accession would have implicated Russian security. Before the invasion, Putin clarified why he thought Ukraine in NATO would pose an imminent threat: Since the West does not recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea, he reasoned, any conflict there might be seen as a Russian attack on Ukraine, triggering Article 5.
    Before the war Washington refused to discuss the extension of NATO to the east. This is kind of strange as the western leaders indicated privately to Ukraine that it will not be the part of NATO. From this article it is clear that USA pushed Russia to the war and used Ukraine to weaken Russia.

    https://theweek.com/nato/1013153/shut-natos-door-to-ukraine-permanently
     
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  2. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Well-Known Member

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    Ukraine's entry into NATO was not imminent. In fact, it was entirely uncertain. Given Georgia and Crimea, Putin certainly gave his neighbors ample reason to seek alliances.
    The root of the problem is the era of the end of the U.S.S.R. Russia should have been incorporated into NATO then, as some foreword thinking people proposed.
     
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  3. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    Incorporating Russia into NATO would be sort of like incorporating MS 13 into the FBI or incorporating the Mafia into the NYPD.
     
  4. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    And now due to Putins actions Finland is joining NATO. Putins caused his own problem, he simply needs to go. What has he done good for Russia?
     
  5. flyboy56

    flyboy56 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    NATO should have ended when The Warsaw Pact ended and all of Europe should have set up their own security agreement excluding the US. The US has it's own continent to worry about. In 1998 NATO was used in Yugoslavia, a non-NATO country. Yeltsin knew then he was lied to by Clinton. So who gave who ample reason to be concerned?
     
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  6. Glücksritter

    Glücksritter Well-Known Member

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    Putin told in his speech in the Bundestag, Democracy, individual freedoms and the rule of law are his biggest concerns and the foundation of Russia's politics. While he made his speech FSB agents were shooting at bull's eyes with a portait of Anna Politkovskaja and his propaganda machine spreading hate and misinformation against the evil West. Five years later Anna Politkovskaja was dead. At this point I wasnt convinced of Putin's responsibility and guilt for it, but in the meanwhile who denies his responsibility for the trail of blood after his silly denials in the case of Navalny, is simply stupid. He is a lying psychopath thats all.

    There are aspects of Western politics, which could have led to conflict with reasonable Russian leaders too, in the case of Putin, its ridiculous to speculate about ist. You cannot believe one single word or speech, you cannot distinguish when he maybe at some point was honest and whats part of his theatre to deceive. He is a psychopath who is responsible for War Crimes, Terrorism, supression. Its silly to take one single word out of his mouth to be true.

    Until 2014 I was a big advocate of him, I considered him to be reasonable and highly intelligent. Up to 2022 I considered him at least to be too intelligent and a good strategist, who would not start a war at this scale.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  7. Joe knows

    Joe knows Well-Known Member

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    Are you kidding me? So you’re suggesting that the wests refusal to acknowledge Crimea as Russia was a threat to Russia that caused them to attack Ukraine although they literally already attacked Ukraine to take Russia?

    This article is arguing that Russia should control what countries become a nato country. Is this thing a joke?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
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  8. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    The part about "annexed Crimea" is laughable.....basically stating that wherever Mafialand decides on an adventure....annexation should be recognized. It's BS.....Nato isn't responsible for eastward expansion....never was....those expanded NATO states VOLUNTARY agreed to join the alliance...no one forced them.

    It's not up to Mafialand to decide who wants in or not,or it's business.

    But...Dwarfstan is its biggest cheerleader since Sweden and Finland are set to join soon.....Mafialand can enjoy its crippling sanctions.:)
     
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  9. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    True....

    The BIG question would be....is/are....if Russia "Were" admitted to NATO.....how comfortable would they be with numerous foreign Western military bases established all across it's territory.

    Especially Brits,Germans,Japan....whom the Russkis have had major grievances with in the past.

    I would hazard a guess ....there would major quarrels within 24 hrs of letting the fox into the henhouse.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  10. vis

    vis Banned

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    This article delivers an important message that it was better that the US directly communicated with Putin the fact that Ukraine will not be in NATO, instead of playing political games that resulted in the war.
     
  11. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He is an international pariah and everyone should ignore him and everything he says. At this point he has been reduced a whiny loser who sits in his bunker and cries in his pillow.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  12. vis

    vis Banned

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    The article is not about if someone can join NATO or not. It is about the fact that the war in Ukraine is provoked by the US.
     
  13. vis

    vis Banned

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    Have you visited Putin and saw him crying? :D
     
  14. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    Dwarfstan wasn't interested in communications....the dwarf made comments way back when yet.....before Orange revolution in 2004....that there needed to be a "serious conversation" about Ukraine re integrating back into the RF....
     
  15. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    Well Putin believed otherwise. He also didn't want Ukraine to be under the western sphere of influence both in culture and trade. Doesn't matter what you believe. Doesn't matter what I believe. All that mattered is how what Putin would believe. And he's given us amble warnings and dialogue to be able to predict his actions.
     
  16. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I didn't have to visit the disaster known as Russia, because it was on TV.

    Snifff sniff....... Poor thing.

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    Last edited: May 11, 2022
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  17. vis

    vis Banned

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    Have not Japanese had major grievances with the US in the past? Yes, they had. Have Germans had major grievances with the US? Yes, they had. So this argument is not strong.
     
  18. vis

    vis Banned

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    Of course, they show him crying in the bedroom on TV.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  19. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    It's an opinion....and afaic...it's not provoked by the US....let's be honest....NATO is like kryptonite to the Dwarfstan....it's what keeps him up at night.....I'm sure it drives him insane that Baltics are full members and US Army is based there within pi$$ing distance of SPete.:)
     
  20. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah...it is a valid point....

    US/German grievances are not as pronounced as Russkis are.....case in point.

    Germans were in Ruussia for nearly 5 yrs and 30 mln dead....only Russkis use the term "Nazis" to label anyone who disagrees.....

    Japs attacked Pearl Harbor which US quickly recovered....Japs sunk entire Russki Navy in 1905.
     
  21. vis

    vis Banned

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    Well, I fully agree with the author of this article that it was provoked. US Army is based in Baltics? Then bad for Batic states as they will be the first ones who suffer in the possible war. Latvia, Estonia are known for support of Nazis. No surprise they are war mongers.
     
  22. vis

    vis Banned

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    I think Japanese have a different point of view on the grievances as you have. Especially after US used atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
     
  23. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah....and your point is what?

    No different really than Chornobyl...even if it was an "accident"?

    Fact is ....no one's interested in "Russki Mir".....that's been proven.
     
  24. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah...well...agree away if you like.

    Bad for Baltics?....no, it sucks for Dwarfstan since no access to Baltic Sea and land route to Konigsberg....and no genocides by orcs....IMHO all those Russki kolorads in Baltics should be rounded up and deported to Mafialand....like what's happening in/around Mariupol....where moscals are deporting locals.

    Latvia/Estonia support "Nazis"....?.....oh please....this is so old and redundant....you can't find other excuses?:)
     
  25. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    That's old propaganda, but it does unintentionally tell us what Putin was planning.

    You are losing...
     

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