At least 1 dead and 5 wounded in shooting at California church

You ever read a newspaper?

 

You said fewer guns = fewer murders. You can't side step that claim, now. What's going to be? Gun ownership makes all the difference, or there are other factors that have to be considered? You can't have it both ways.

 

I said the Drug War was responsible.

Have to say your answer to my question is no..

 

The drug war doesn't have anything to do with it. That's the same loonacy as raising taxes to lower inflation...lol

 

It's history.

The Drug War nearly made Columbia a failed state. It took billions to prop them up. It's a hell of a story. It's now savaging Mexico. The drug gangs are much better armed than the government. That weakness has enable other sorts of crime gangs, like kidnapping.

 

So what you're saying, is that there are other factors besides gun ownership that affect murder rates. That's what we've been saying. Congratulations on catching up.

 

Not catching up, reminding you that you are wrong, and man, oh man, you are wrong a LOT.

 

You just claimed that gun ownership didn't affect the murder rate in Mexico.

 

Nope.

We are getting to the point where I say that if you don't have anything to say worth saying...

 

Yore running away because you realize you stepped on your tongue...lol

 

Seems to be a recurring theme!

 

Would this bother you less if all guns were banned? Because it still happens in places that ban guns...

 

And that’s in the exclusively Democrat run cities for the past 75 years like Chicago Illinois, Baltimore Maryland, St. Louis Missouri, Jackson Mississippi, Detroit Michigan, Newark New Jersey, Bronx New York, Philadelphia Pennsylvania, Camden New Jersey, New Orleans Louisiana, etc.

 

You best be armed when you leave your house, if the country is that dangerous.

 

Hi, modernpaladin,

What would bother me less would be the total number of gun deaths were it to be significantly reduced.

Regards, stay safe 'n well . . . 'n un-shot.

 

Take the criminals off the street. That'll lower gun deaths.

 

Seriously!

Or just avoid those exclusively Democrat run, drug and crime infested cities they're in charge of for these past 75 years.

 

Hi, Navy Corpsman,

No. It's based on the 2020 data which encompasses the entire United States of America, city, suburbs and rural.

You can find the report at: A Year in Review 2020 GUN DEATHS IN THE U.S. (jhu.edu)

Regards, stay safe 'n well . . . 'n un-shot.

 

The anti-gunners go on about how dangerous The United States is and "stay un-shot", then turn around and say there's no need to carry a weapon in public because the country isn't that dangerous...lol

 

Well maybe they will feel nice and safe armed with their plastic sporks while leaving Starbuck's or McDonald's until they are all banned because "Global Warming" and the "Great Reset"

 

No,the rate of homicide to use of guns shows clearly a direct increase in homicide when someone uses a gun:

Mexico, annual deaths resulting from firearms totals ( source: https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/mexico):

• percentage of homicides committed with a firearm

2015: 61.7%36
2013: 50.2%37
2012: 64%38
2011: 68%38 30 39
2010: 71%38 30 40
2009: 55%30
2008: 39%
2007: 39%
2006: 31%
2005: 29%
2004: 24.5%23
2003: 23.7%
2002: 19.8%
2001: 25.3%
2000: 26.0%
1999: 60.1%
1998: 46.2%
1997: 29.9%

• rate of gun homicide per 100,000 People

2017: 16.5029
2016: 12.50
2015: 10.30
2014: 9.70
2013: 11.90
2012: 13.80
2011: 15.50
2010: 15.50
2009: 10.91
2008: 7.97
2007: 4.37
2006: 5.31
2005: 4.79
2004: 4.50
2003: 4.94
2002: 5.09
2001: 5.31
2000: 5.46
1999: 6.6426 23 34
1998: 7.61
1997: 7.9326 23
1996: 8.8026
1995: 9.76
1994: 9.8835

also:

https://knoema.com/atlas/Mexico/Homicides-by-firearm-rate


Next comparing Mexico to the United States is like comparing apples to oranges but if you want to compare them you can see the US has a much higher gun crime rate than Mexico:

Gun crime > Guns per 100 residents

(source: https://www.nationmaster.com/countr...ited-States/Crime/Violent-crime#united states)

Mexico USA
Ranked 40th. 88.8 Ranked 1st. 6 times more than Mexico

Next not that you care but:

"The U.S. plays a primary role in this violence as the principal source of arms flowing legally and illegally to Mexico. U.S. Census Bureau data show that the U.S. exported more than $33 million of firearms, ammunition and gun parts to Mexico last year, far more than to any other Latin American country."

source:https://masspeaceaction.org/the-other-public-health-crisis-gun-violence-in-mexico/

Where do you think the firearms have come from in Mexico and what makes you think they have "fewer" guns per ratio. What statistics are you using to compare actual gun ownership per ratio of population?

If anything the statistics above clearly show that where there is an increase in guns, up goes the homicide rate. It aint rocket science.

 

By the way Wild Bill, you assume because I am in favour of gun regulation and screening of people who buy guns I am anti gun. It doesn't make me anti gun. It makes someone who favours assuring people who do end up with gun insist on then leaving a bar after consuming 8 Jack Daniels carrying a loaded rifle any more than it makes me anti car that the same person after their 8 jack D's gets in their car to drive.

 

No I said the rate of homicide rises when the rate of gun ownership rises. I have also argued there is a direct co-relation to gun ownership rates and rates of homicide and there is a direct co-relation between homicide and OTHER crimes and the use of guns.

I have also stated homicide goes up when someone has access to a gun.

Please get it straight. I have not side stepped anything and provided you and everyone else stats. Fewer guns in circulation, fewer gun related crimes including homicide. Nothing you have provided contradicts that. The example from Mexico just is not true.

What you are in fact trying to argue is that regulating the amount of guns in circulation doesn't lower homicide rates. The statistics do show if you can reduce
access to a gun it will lower the risk probability of committing a gun related crime including homicide.

 

Here is clear factual evidence of why the amount of guns and so gun related crimes and homicides in Mexico have increased:

"Evidence suggests that, aside from other contributing factors, an expansion of the illegal firearms market in Mexico has played a major role in fueling violence. Some studies have linked the increase of illegal firearms in México to the expiration of the Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) in the U.S. in 2004. This ban triggered opportunities for gun traffickers along the U.S.-Mexico border and contributed to an escalation of violence in Mexico.1

Gun violence has become a serious issue in Mexico. According to the 2017 National Victimization Survey (ENVIPE), one third of the 17 million crimes that occurred in 2016 in which a victim was present involved the use of a firearm.2This phenomenon has a major impact considering that 34 percent of the households in Mexico included at least one victim of crime in 2016.3

Crimes committed with guns have increased markedly over time. While firearms were used in 58 percent of violent crimes committed with some type of weapon in 2005, this figure increased to 68 percent by 2015.6 A similar pattern is reported for homicides. Thirty nine percent of all murders were committed with a gun in 2007, compared to 67 percent in 2017, an all-time high.4"


1 David Pérez Esparza & Eugenio Weigend, Más armas, más homicidios, Revista Nexos September 1, (2013), available athttp://www.nexos.com.mx/?p=15496; Arindrajit Dube, Oeindrila Dube and Omar Garcia Ponce, Cross-Border Spillover: US Gun Laws and Violence in Mexico, 107 American Political Science Association 3, 397-417 (2013).

2 Instituto Nacional de Estadística y Geografía (INEGI), Encuesta Nacional de Victimización y Percepción sobre Seguridad Pública 2017 (2017).

5Id.

3 Instituto Ciudadano de Estudios sobre la Inseguridad (ICESI), Tercera Encuesta Nacional sobre Inseguridad 2005 (2005); Instituto Nacional de Estadística y Geografía (INEGI), Encuesta Nacional de Victimización y Percepción sobre Seguridad Pública 2016 (2016).

4 Secretario Ejecutivo del Sistema Nacional de Seguridad Pública (SNSP), Delitos del Fuero Común 2017 (2017); Secretario Ejecutivo del Sistema Nacional de Seguridad Pública (SNSP), Delitos del Fuero Común 2007 (2007).

 

It is misleading to argue to claim low gun ownership has not prevented homicide in Mexico. To start with there is no accurate way to determine the actual number of guns in the possession of individuals in Mexico,because of the nature of trafficking firearms illegally in Mexico.

The actual relationship between firearm availability and associated mortality, particularly for firearm homicide can be tracked and that is definitively used to show a direct rise in homicide and gun related crimes by people in possession of guns, but who actually has a gun legally or illegally remains unclear. Certainly drug cartel related crimes in Mexico have a lot to do with their high gun killing rates.

What also is known about Mexico is less than 3% of the people who live in its cities claim they own guns or want them. The average Mexican unlike an American does not want to own a gun. They are more like we Canadians. Its not part of their culture. The people with guns are more likely to be in drug cartels or organized criminal gangs. Most weapons in Mexico come from the US. If there was no access to these weapons the question would be would the rates of homicide go down.

That the statistics do not show. They can only show if someone does not have access to a weapon they can't use it. Whether they use another weapon the stats do not show. If you look at Mexico's homicide rates, they actually decrease quite a lot when they are not done by gun. It doesn't stop homicides entirely but it certainly reduces their amount in large numbers.

I can tell you this. Both Mexico and Canada can show you there are less domestic dispute homicides in Canada and Mexico than in the US because we are less likely to have guns at home.

Also I can state since Wild Bill thinks I am anti gun, rural hunters, i.e., people who use rifles as a necessity to hunt to eat and protect themselves from certain wildlife, in Canada don't get into homicides with their rifles. The homicides with weapons are usually in cities not with subsistence hunters. So in my perspective I am not anti guns-I am pro controlling the circulation of weapons and who uses them no differently than I am wanting to control people who drive vehicles. I am interested in cutting down on the risks associated with firearms. That is just me.

I respect Wild Bill's right to own a gun. I would not respect his right to own a gun if he is irresponsible with it anymore than if he was drunk and getting into a car.

Next, I do not tell Americans about their guns. I find pro gun owners in the US totally different than people who own guns in Canada. Gun owners in Canada don't argue against gun control. They have concerns about unrealistic gun control or gun control that does not properly define the weapons being regulated.

Finally I do not see why anyone needs army assault rifles or automatic machine guns myself. I have hunted. I have been in a unit where I had to train with a weapon. Many I know have as well. They are not anti gun-they taught me to respect it.