Is Neo[Atheism] a Rational Religion?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Kokomojojo, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Sure it did.

    Because they dive into every possible rabbit hole and are flushed out proving their nonsense.

    Keep in mind that definitive answers does not prevent these people from obstinately demanding their position is valid despite they are knowingly pounding square pegs in round holes.

    Now thanks to our self proclaimed logic teacher (that should be fired if that is true) for allowing students to answer "I dont know" to a "true/false" question turning logic on its head, much the same as our UK friends that are diligently working to turn philosophy on its head..
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
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  2. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Nope. "Believing" is not a proposition, "believing God exists" is not a proposition, but "Kokomojojo believes God exists" is a proposition.

    A proposition is a declarative sentence that holds a truth value, "believe" or "believing" or "believing God exists" isn't a declarative sentence, it's barely even a sentence. Saying that "believing" is true doesn't even make sense in itself (without some creative interpretation).

    However, it is possible to make a sentence (even a proposition) about a belief (and not only about the subject of the belief).

    "The Pope believes God exists" is a proposition. It can hold a truth value, for instance, this example holds the truth value "true". It is true that the Pope believes that God exists. The proposition is true, even if the proposition "God exists" is false, so clearly, "the Pope believes God exists" is a proposition in its own right, not just a rephrasing of "God exists".

    Not sure what kind of rule you're looking for. Why would there have to be a rule?

    If you're asked for how many blades of grass there are in my garden, what would your answer be, and what rules would you be invoking? Would you be invoking a rule if you answered "true" to a question? Answering these may give me an idea of what kind of rule you're looking for.

    There are rules, such as the LEM and LNC, but they apply to propositions, not to questions and answers. Propositions must be true or false, I don't know of any rule that says that a person must be able to give a true or false answer when asked about a proposition (in fact, I can point to counterexamples, which show that it must not be so, such as the blades of grass example).

    I gave you the rule about paradoxes and propositions like three times, and that seems not to have sunk in either.

    Rules are more easily misinterpreted. For instance, I laid down the "rule" that believing isn't a proposition, and you misinterpreted that as something like "any sentence that contains reference to belief mustn't be a proposition". If you look at the example "the Pope believes that God exists", you can clearly see how you can create a declarative sentence with a truth value (i.e. a proposition) about a belief.

    You can derive rules from examples if you need to. The blades of grass example shows that you can be asked a question to which you don't know the answer. Now, you can interpret that as you being wrong about asserting that there needs to be a rule in order for that to happen, or you can interpret it as this showing that there is a rule that says that it is allowed. I don't really mind, it seems irrelevant to me.

    Nope, anything that cannot hold a truth value (such as "this sentence is false") is not a proposition, by definition.

    "* There are examples of declarative sentences that are not propositions. For example, ‘This sentence is false’ is not a proposition, since no truth value can be assigned." (source)
    Example 1.2.13. “This sentence is false.” What happens if you assume this statement is true? false? This example is called a paradox and is not a proposition (source)​

    You've been given the rule itself (here) and several detailed explanations on how that rule applies to the particular example you've brought up.

    "God Exists?" is a question. You can tell by the question mark.

    "God exists" is a proposition. It is either true or false, and we have a rule that says so. However, you've rephrased it from a proposition into questions and responses, and there is no rule that demands that those need to be true or false only.

    Nope, if there isn't enough information in a question to answer which one of true or false it is, a teacher should, and most likely will, mark any "true" or "false" answers wrong, and give full marks to someone who correctly identifies there not being enough information.
     
  3. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Im still waiting for your 'logic rule' that allows you to dodge answering a T/F question/statement/declarative, whatever, with an "I dont know" response. Pick which ever one you think best applies.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
  4. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Although propositions cannot be particular thoughts since those are not shareable, they could be types of cognitive events[4] or properties of thoughts (which could be the same across different thinkers).[5]

    Philosophical debates surrounding propositions as they relate to propositional attitudes have also recently centered on whether they are internal or external to the agent, or whether they are mind-dependent or mind-independent entities. For more, see the entry on internalism and externalism in philosophy of mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition


    Stanford has explained this to you many times.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
  5. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Is a yes or no question a proposition?

    For example, yes–no questions present propositions, being inquiries into the truth value of them.

    Proposition - Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Proposition
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
  6. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I would call this distinction overly pedantic. The former is a proposition put into the form of a question.

    True or false is still correct even if a guess and should get full marks if simply posed as a test question. That's why good teachers tell students to "show their work" and tell them points will be awarded for doing so.
     
  7. RoccoR

    RoccoR Well-Known Member Donor

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    RE: Is Neo[Atheism] a Rational Religion?
    SUBTOPIC: Proving an Unknown Exists
    ⁜→ Kokomojojo, Swensson, et al,

    I tend to think that you are getting unnecessarily entangled in the definition. Do not try to label it. Instead, examine the content. Does it make a complete statement that it is either true or false.

    (COMMENT)

    Anytime you communicate a meaning; it expresses a thought. The meaning or thought is a proposition. While most sentences express meaning or thought (becoming a proposition), a single word can convey a specific meaning or thought. If you say the single word → "GOD" you can convey or impart certain imagery (a proposition in itself). However, you can convey information, but not convey the thought. If I said "HANEUNIM" the information becomes meaningless (even though it means GOD in Korean). The same thing happens to me in calculus. I can find my way in Newtonian Notation, but become completely lost in Leibniz Notation. The key is that to be a proposition, you must pass along a coherent meaning or thought.

    This explanation of a proposition is (what you might call) the first approximation. This is especially true when using words like GOD. The meaning or thought of GOD is not received in the same way. Some might immediately conger a vision of the Sistine Chapel, others might think of the Burning Bush (being a manifestation of GOD) on Mount Horeb, and still, others might snap on a mental image of the Universe, a derivative creation by the Supreme Being.

    (COMMENT)

    It may or may not be a "proposition." It certainly "could be" a true or false statement. But in cases of the illusionary or the intangible, we must construct an argument wherein all of its premises are true but in reality, the solution is false (the construct must be both sound and valid).

    The test question does not need to be complicated. There must be a recognizable distinction between a "GOD" and a "NOT GOD" defined. That gets complicated.

    This is my approach to the issue.
    [​IMG]
    Most Respectfully,
    R
     
  8. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I'd say so too, I've let this slide in the past.

    However, one of Kokomojojo's errors lie in conflating the two. A proposition must be true or false. The response from a real human to a question about a proposition doesn't necessarily have to be true or false, it can be "I don't know", or "I won't tell you" etc..

    Normally I wouldn't bother with the distinction, but he's refusing to answer any other questions. Instead he asks for a rule why responses don't have to be true or false, and the answer to that is that the only rule that demands true/false applies to propositions, not to a person answering questions.

    If a question doesn't include enough information to deduce whether the answer is yes or no, then I wouldn't give points for yes or no answers. If you've correctly identified that a question doesn't include enough information, I don't see why you wouldn't deserve full marks.

    If you are asked a true/false question, and you guess and get it right, you should get the point for getting it right, but as you say, most good teachers will reward only small amounts of points for the answer, and more for showing the working.
     
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  9. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    True / False Questions

    True and False Questions consist of a question and
    two answer options. More often than not, the answer options used are 'True and False'. You can however use other options, such as 'Yes' and 'No', 'I Agree' and 'I Disagree'.

    Also known as: TF, binary choice questions, objective

    https://www.classmarker.com/learn/question-types/true-false-questions/

    Still waiting for our fake 'logic' teacher @yardmeat (who dodged posting a citation with a false tangent), and now also waiting for you to post your citation proving "it can be "I don't know"" is a fact since its pretty clear @yardmeat simply made it up and you agreed with him.

    Its become eminently clear you have 'nothing' to support your claim and @yardmeat simply made it all up.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  10. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I'm still waiting for your justification why I would have to provide one. There are questions to which you do not know the answer, I don't see why there would be a problem with that.

    There is a rule saying that propositions must be true or false. There is no rule saying that a person when asked about a proposition must be able to tell you whether the proposition is true or false. In particular, we have examples of questions to which we don't know the answer.

    In the blades of grass example, would you answer true or false, or I don't know?

    Since you won't answer the question, I don't really know what kind of rule you're looking for.

    Again, you're conflating things. A belief is not the same as a proposition about a belief.

    An apple is an apple, not a proposition. "I have an apple" is a proposition (it is declarative, and currently false), and follows the rules that apply to propositions. The fact that the proposition mentions an apple does not mean the apple is a proposition or that the proposition is an apple.

    Similarly, a belief is a belief, but I can make a proposition about a belief, such as "The Pope believes that God exists", and that proposition will follow the rules of a proposition.

    The Pope's belief that God exists is a belief, a psychological state (a state of the Pope's psyche in particular). it is not a proposition, for similar reasons as above: it isn't a declarative sentence.

    However, I can make a proposition relating to it, "The Pope believes God exists". This is a declarative sentence, it is capable of holding a truth value (it happens to hold the truth value "true"), so it is a proposition.

    Of course, all of this remains a red herring, because regardless of whether "I don't know" is an allowed answer to any question about propositions, we've already established that you have the information to answer the question I asked. "I don't know" isn't a categorically impossible answer, it's just an incorrect answer.

    There is a proposition "Kokomojojo believes God exists". It cannot be said to be true, so by the law of the excluded middle, it must be false. It is possible for someone to not know whether Kokomojojo believes in God, but I'm pretty sure Kokomojojo does know.

    No. A question is a question. A question is not declarative, so it is not a proposition.

    You can make a question about a proposition, but it will be a question, not a proposition, and will not be governed by the rules that govern propositions.

    Yep, a yes/no question can present a proposition, but that's not the same as being a proposition. It is normally not an important distinction, but only propositions are required to conform to true/false. Your request for a rule seems to be based on a misconception.

    Hah, that isn't about T/F questions in a logical sense, that is just how some company in Sydney has implemented it in their test-taking software.

    We have the blades of grass example, showing that there are true/false questions to which the answer isn't known.

    I guess the rule is that anything that actually happens must have been possible, i.e. anything that there are examples of must be possible. The blades of grass example is such an example, where the answer is unknown, so true/false are not available answers.
     
  11. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Ha! :roflol:
    Nose is growing!
    Now thats a new twist for you!
    So binary isnt logic based!! LMFAO
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  12. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    If you do not know the answer to a true or false question, the answers are still true or false. You just don't know which, and may respond accordingly. But you aren't answering the question in that case in your response. You are explaining why you can not answer. But let's not get bogged down in wording. I see your point.
     
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  13. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry that you still don't understand the concept of bivalence. I'm sorry you can't come to terms with the fact that you can know an answer is either true or false without knowing which. you are the only person here who doesn't understand these basic facts, however. I didn't make up these facts. They have always existed. Several of us have proven this many times over. And you've constantly contradicted yourself.

    The number of stars in our galaxy is either odd or it isn't. You've admitted this. You've also admitted you don't know which. When you engage in this childish, intellectually dishonest behavior, you are just contradicting what you've already admitted.
     
  14. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    In every logic class I've taken or tutored, this comes up. We're always given problems where we have a set of premises and are asked to use inferences from those premises to reach a particular conclusion.

    For example, we might be given the premise
    1) (A & B) & C

    And then be asked to prove B.

    This is quite easy to do with two implementations of the conjunction elimination inference (which @Kokomojojo still denies, despite it appearing in every intro textbook and despite his own sources contradicting him on this).

    1) (A & B) & C -- Premise
    2) A & B -- 1, CE
    3) B -- 2, CE

    In every class I've been in or have tutored, there have been unsolvable problems on tests and quizzes -- you're asked to reach a conclusion that you can't justify using the premises and rules of inference.

    Example:

    1) A or B -- Premise

    Prove B

    When that happens, you simply respond with "unsolvable," AKA, "I don't know." You aren't denying that the conclusion is either true or false; you are just denying that you have enough information to demonstrate which.

    This also constantly happens in geometry classes. You KNOW that the angle has a numerical value, but if you don't have enough information to know WHAT the numerical value is, then you don't know. And "I don't know"/unsolvable is a perfectly valid response, despite the fact that you know that there is, ultimately, an answer. But, yet again, @Kokomojojo seems to be the only one here who can't understand that simple concept.
     
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  15. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Unless the multiverse theory of multiple branching universes is true, in which case AorB proves both A and B, in different universes. Crazy sci Fi stuff maybe. Not sure.
     
  16. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    HAHA!
    There you go folks!

    Our fake logic teacher has NO CITATION to support his claim because its all made up bullshit. Instead he gives us a page of strawman disinfo and gaslighting.

    "I dont know" is not on the list of valid responses for a T/F question as he claims. Busted again! LOL

    Nothing to see here folks, no citation, SSDD from the usual intellectually dishonest players.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  17. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Specify one thing I said that was wrong or that ANY logic teacher or logic textbook contradicts. I know you can't. Busted again! Maybe quote another source that contradicts you! Those are always fun. Seems to be a favorite hobby of yours.
     
  18. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    "I dont know" is not on the list of valid responses for a T/F question as he claims. Busted again!
    CITATION to the contrary REQUIRED!
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  19. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    "I dont know" is not on the list of valid responses for a T/F question as he claims. Busted again!
    CITATION to the contrary REQUIRED!
     
  20. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    The pattern of running away and hiding continues.

    The number of stars in our galaxy is odd. True or false?

    Don't worry, we're used to you running away and hiding from questions like this and waving your white flag the whole way while you flee.
     
  21. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    I have evidence on the table you have nothing but a pile of verbal :icon_shithappens:!

    Please read before responding:

    "I dont know" is not on the list of valid responses for a T/F question as he @yardmeat claims. Busted again! CITATION to the contrary REQUIRED!

    Stop by when you have a citation proving your claim that that "I dont know" is a valid response to a true false question.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  22. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Someone still hasn't read what I wrote. Someone is still running away and hiding from the question I asked. But, hey, thanks for yet another white flag.
     
  23. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    That was a crying towel given to those that hang themselves.
    There was no CITATION from you in any of your posts.
    Stop by if you ever find one!
    Plonk!
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  24. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    The number of stars in our galaxy is an odd number. True or false? What's your answer? Or keep submitting and admitting defeat. Your choice. But we both know you will continue to run, hide, and admit defeat.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  25. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    New word game incoming? Maybe he will tell you the number isn't peculiar?

    Fun fun
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
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