Were the Police Abject Cowards, or Prudent?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by FAW, May 27, 2022.

  1. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is an extremely complex topic.

    Like everyone else, I was completely appalled to hear that it took upwards of an hour before they took out the gunman. To put yourself into the position of one of the parents of the children, this concept is unthinkable. If you put yourself into the position of a parent of one of the cops however, you may look at it in another light.

    From what we know, it sounds as if the shooter was in body armor, barricaded in a classroom and there was only one entrance. I heard an FBI pundit describe this single entry as what they call a death funnel, because all gunfire is going to be directed at that door, and clearly the first several people coming through that door are going to be killed. They do not actually know exactly where he is in the room, so for the early people to rush in, they do not even know where to direct their fire. If you send enough through, eventually the gunman will be overtaken, but clearly, many are going to die before that happens. This would not be dissimilar to storming the beach at Normandy with an entrenched machine gunner. They were eventually overtaken, but it killed hundreds of men in the process.

    In this case, it is my understanding that they waited for the tactical team that had what is called a level 4 shield, and the person stormed the door with that level 4 shield and was able to eventually kill the gunman. I believe he was shot in the legs (below the shield), but because of that shield, none of the shots that hit him were fatal.

    With this being the case, it brings up several questions that I sincerely do not know the answer. I realize that it is a soldier's duty to follow orders, and if their commanding officer orders them to go on a suicide mission, it is their job to follow that order without question. Does this same duty exist with a police officer? In other words, is a police officer duty-bound to go on a suicide mission? Does a police commander have the right to send his men on a suicide mission? Or is he duty-bound to first and foremost protect the lives of the men he leads?

    I sincerely do not know these answers, and I am not even sure where I fall on having an opinion on what should have been done. It is easy to call these cops cowards, which was my first reaction, but upon further reflection, I can sympathize with the awful decision faced by whomever was commanding the police, because ultimately it was their call. If there was a particularly heroic cop or group of cops wanting to storm the door quickly, they would have to do so with their commander's blessing, and it would need to be done in a carefully coordinated manner, which would definitely require coordination with the commander.

    I can truly sympathize with both sides of this argument. The answers to the above questions perhaps can shed some light on what was the proper course of action.
     
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  2. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing complex at all about it. The police take an oath to protect and serve. Waiting for a swat team while children are bleeding out is no protection or service. Guidelines for police is immediate action for active school shooters. They should be fired immediately.

    I understand fear. I am fearful of some things. i've been in the target of an artillery barrage. I've been shot in a bar in Paris. I'm going Wednesday for my second cancer surgery. People must overcome fear to do what they need to do particularly those who swear to do it. I'm a supporter of police, but not these particular officers.
     
  3. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    I've read that he wasn't wearing body armor, and body armor doesn't cover the head and it doesn't stop rifle rounds.
    This is likely also wrong. Fire codes require at least two exits from every classroom, and that they are physically separated (and I would require that they be on opposing walls so that one shooter outside the room can't cover both doors from one vantage point). I've also heard that he entered through a rear door that had been improperly left unlocked.
    This is also wrong. They engage at both doors, and between the pressure from both sides, keep him occupied so that he is not killing innocents, while forcing him to cover two physically separated entrances you work for him to expose himself to being shot before he shoots any officers, but, officers may get hit, they know that when they pick up a firearm as a tool of the trade. but the gunman, now engaged on two sides, and when he fires he reveals his position, is not free to kill innocents unhindered because he is fighting for his life. And that's the key when a person is killing others, you need to either quickly stop the threat or force the threat to engage YOU until he is stopped. That's the job, and when an officer puts on the uniform and badge that IS the job that he is saying that he has agreed to, and trained to do. That is why we, as a society, show them respect.
    Not really. But yes it's very dangerous, but if you don't 19 innocents are killed and some may be saveable through emergency first aid that cannot begin until you stop the threat, so that is the IMMEDIATE focus and effort.

    Police SOP's were changed after Columbine when the two killers rampaged for two hours killing innocents while the police remained on the perimeter unengaged. The SOP's since then, and that's been over a decade, is that a single officer may attempt to breach, if they choose to, but as soon as there are two or more they will actively engage until the threat is stopped.

    If you will not follow the S&P's then don't put on the uniform. Nobody has ever claimed that being a police officer isn't a high ask, high risk, job where you are asked to put your life on the line to protect the innocent. The failure here, if it as described, is a failure of leadership and training. Again assuming that the reports are correct, the leadership needs to be sacked and every officer that failed to follow the S&P's' needs to be sacked. The leaders needed to make the expectations clear, set the example, and train sufficiently to uncover and remove those would not do what was required of them when their moment came.
    Life preservation of the officer is why police officers immediately shoot, and shoot to kill in the presence of a deadly threat. They do not stand around, they do not try to shoot them in the legs, they immediately terminate the threat.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
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  4. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As far as the details, I am only going by what I have seen reported as to the situation. If new information comes out and I am sure that it will, the new details can definitely be taken into account. I appreciate your opinion and am not looking to argue one way or the other because I do not at this point have a concrete opinion on the subject. I can see both sides of the debate, despite the fact that at this point saying anything even remotely in defense of the cops is clearly going to be unpopular.

    On another note, I am not so sure that every classroom in America has two doors. In fact, I know that is not true. I have been in several classrooms in the last 5 years, and every one of them had only one door.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
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  5. Hey Now

    Hey Now Well-Known Member

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    Lots of things appeared to have gone wrong.

    I will say this, if any of those police had kids in that class or room, someone might have not hesitated.
     
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  6. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    It just doesn't make sense to me that police allowed this to happen, seemingly, they were there on scene quickly, but the information is now coming out that for some reason, they wouldn't themselves engage. That seems a terrible dereliction of duty to me. Kids died because Barney couldn't be bothered to actually protect the school. Perhaps those folks who only think about, I'm going home after my shift don't need to be police.
     
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  7. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have to wait a couple of weeks before I comment on what happened, logistically.
    Otherwise.. what I know so far about the mass murder is, he was a cross dresser, liked the look of himself as a chick, he called attention to himself and then got offended that anyone commented, said he was being bullied at school, so wasn't going to have the hours to graduate, Message he was going to shoot his grandma because she wasn't paying his cell bill and then started this rage by first shooting grandma in the face. So the kid that was being bullied for being poor,but bought a couple of rifles and ammo? Where did he get the money for those? And he sounds as tho' he felt entitled to be spoiled by 'buela, in fact the guy thinks the whole world owes him. These guys are sociopaths, and when they do something as this person did, it is 50% culture and 50% mental illness.

    I'd start with mental health evaluations when a posting history is red flagged. First question would be, did you have loving male and female parents in the household years 0-5 of life?
     
  8. Rampart

    Rampart Banned

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    good luck with that cancer surgery. my second surgery (after 2 years of chemo and radiation) seems to have done the job.
     
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  9. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    /dittos fmw and you.
     
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  10. Rampart

    Rampart Banned

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    sounds like they need more of those level 4 shields. that classroom had only one door and no windows?
     
  11. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They couldn’t afford more windows as the money had to go to tampons for boys
     
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  12. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I do not pretend to know every detail, but I definitely heard an expert last night saying there was only one door and that it was what they in the business call a death funnel because any attempt at entry was funneled into that one spot. This person was not taking up for the cops by the way.

    Another question I would have is why did they not use tear gas? That seems like a logical tactic, and I wonder if perhaps that podunk police department does not have that type of thing.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    they handcuffed one parent, then another cop unhandcuffed her later, she then ran in to the school when the cops were not looking and saved her child, that is being brave, and she did not even have a gun
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
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  14. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  15. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Further into my post, I mentioned that they waited until the shield arrived before entering.

    ..."it is my understanding that they waited for the tactical team that had what is called a level 4 shield, and the person stormed the door with that level 4 shield and was able to eventually kill the gunman. I believe he was shot in the legs (below the shield), but because of that shield, none of the shots that hit him were fatal."
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  16. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you didn't notice the second door, but if not, that's a problem because in an emergency you would likely remain unaware of it if it's not properly posted as an exit.

    Here are the general rules of what you should see:

    How many exit routes must a workplace have?
    "Normally, a workplace must have at least two exit routes to permit prompt evacuation of employees and other building occupants during an emergency. More than two exits are required, however, if the number of employees, size of the building, or arrangement of the workplace will not allow employees to evacuate safely. Exit routes must be located as far away as practical from each other in case one is blocked by fire or smoke."

    https://www.ehso.com/oshaguides/osha_exit_requirements.php
     
  17. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sincerely, many classrooms only have one door. Sometimes you will see a rear entrance to an elementary school door that leads to the outside for kids to go out to recess, but in a lot of high schools (especially two-story buildings), they only have one.

    I have been to an awful lot of classrooms for parent-teacher conferences etc, and I can only speak to what I have personally witnessed. I have personally witnessed a lot of classrooms that only have one door. Similarly, hotels also often only have one door. I am not so sure that your info saying they have to have 2 exit routes applies to every single room. Offices in an office building also typically only have one door. I think you are reading more into that regulation than it really contains. I think it is the building that has to have more than one way to exit, not every individual room.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
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  18. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    The discussion is classrooms not small occupancy offices.
     
  19. ShadowX

    ShadowX Well-Known Member

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    So a few things.

    From what I’ve read there was only one door to the classroom and the door was locked.

    It is unclear so far whether there was a second door or they could be referring to the previously mentioned door, but apparently there was a locked steel door that they couldn’t breech even after the elite unit got there. So they had to get a master key to open it.

    Two officers did engage before he locked himself in the classroom. He shot them both and then locked himself inside the classroom.

    Also at 12:10 two US Marshall’s showed up and they chose not to engage as well.

    The man in charge is claiming that he believed the threat to the children had been contained in that classroom and he didn’t realize there were children in the room with him at the time he made the decision not to go inside.

    At least that’s the newest updates I’ve read.
     
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  20. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am just being polite and did not want to rudely shut you down. I know for an absolute fact that many school classrooms have only one door. It is not a gray area even slightly.

    This is not a legitimate point of debate. I have seen it with my own two eyes too many times to count. I have been in countless schools in recent years with my kids, and I also remember full well when I was in school, and those buildings still stand. Most of those classrooms did not have 2 doors. In fact, very few of them did.

    You showed OSHA regulations relating to workplaces, and an office building is indeed a workplace. If you want to pretend like schools have a different code, then by all means please give a link to relevant regulations specifically aimed at schools, but the regulation that you pointed to absolutely applies to office buildings, and office buildings absolutely have a lot of offices and conference rooms with only one door.

    Here is a blueprint for a new school being built. It was the first one I found, I did not hunt and peck for an unusual example. Most of these classrooms have only one door. Do you require further proof?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
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  21. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Good that you have survived cancer like I have. I'm also a heart attack survivor. I've had two bypass surgeries. I don't think this cancer is particularly bad. It is young and responds well to surgery. Thanks for the kind words.
     
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  22. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Well, you seem to have gotten over that.
    It's an interesting point. I'll keep a look out. Thanks for your detailed reply.
     
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  23. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ha Ha. Fair enough. I apologize.

    No offense intended
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  24. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    My apologies back, I intended to delete that once I gave it more thought, considered the effort you went to give a reasoned response backed up with evidence and the fact that what I originally thought might not be true. I didn't realize that was still in there when I posted.
     
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  25. ECA

    ECA Well-Known Member

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    Cowards
     

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