harry truman on "socialism"

The Fire Department is socialist.

 

If you really knew anything about World War Two, you would realize that civilians on all sides, were targeted. Hitler fired his V-1 and V-2 rockets, into the city of London. British air force, customarily bombed German civilians. Though they were our ally, encouraging us to follow suit, we actually refrained from this, for some time. Eventually, though, we did go along with the Brits. Did you never hear of the fire bombing of Dresden? Tens of thousands were burned alive-- hardly an improvement over a nuclear attack, for those killed. It is, in fact, far easier to defend the dropping of an atomic bomb on Japan, than what we did to Dresden, because the Germans were close to surrender, at that point, while the Japanese culture, precluded the people's rejection of their Emperor's commands; they would fight to the last person, despite that, from any military appraisal, they had already lost their war.

The invasion of the Japanese mainland, which was assumed by all to be necessary, if Japan were ever to surrender, would entail at least 50,000 U.S. casualties, according to estimates, at the time-- without even mentioning the far greater number of Japanese deaths, as every citizen would become, in reality, an imperial soldier, the moment we'd disembarked. The proof that these predictions were correct, that the Emperor would have continued fighting us, no matter how hopeless things had become, in a conventional warfare scenario, was that even after we had proven the terrible destructive power of our bomb, which warnings from us had been ignored by Japanese leaders, nevertheless, they continued fighting. We had to prove to the Emperor, that we had more than one. This shows that Hirohito would have dragged his nation through more of a hell, and to a deeper ruin, than even did Hitler.

No one is happy about needing to make that decision, but there were no good options. This was the best decision-- a hard one; but the right one.

 

Yeah, I always thought it was a bad decision that they did not wait a week or two. How much did the Japanese leadership really understand about what happened to Hiroshima by the time Nagasaki was hit?

 

Exactly - Japan was in complete disarray after Hiroshima and surrender was inevitable

 

My money is on the govt doing it to, 1 show Russia we made more than one and 2 to study the effects on a human population.

 

You mean the innocent Japanese civilians who were producing war supplies in their homes? The same supplies used in the killing of innocent Americans, Chinese, Australians, Britians, Koreans, and Filipinos?

 

Bombing civilian targets was the norm back then. We did in Europe and we did it in Japan.

And you think its socialism......

Well, I suppose it proved the OP point, - everything the pseudo-cons do not like is "socialism" to them. It has been chiseled into their brains every since WW2.

Same is true with capitalism. When you run out of other peoples money, you go under. After all, the whole idea is to make a profit from other peoples money. I prefer capitalism of course, although that too can go too far like it did in the days of Carnegie, when people had to work 12 hr days to earn just barely enough to feed their families and they were 100% dependent on their employers who gave them the scraps. Working conditions were horrendous.

Ironically in his later days when he was the richest man on earth Carnage ended up being a big supporter of progressive taxation, estate taxes and he even gave away 90% of his wealth, kind of like what Bill Gates is doing now.

 

~ Who was President Truman referring to as "they" ..? Likely his political rivals — not the voters. America was a different place with very different political ideals. The majority on Capitola Hill were against Communism and totalitarian policies — not trying to push it onto the very citizens they represent as we see today.

 

“Republicans approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke. They stand four-square for the American home--but not for housing. They are strong for labor--but they are stronger for restricting labor's rights. They favor minimum wage--the smaller the minimum wage the better. They endorse educational opportunity for all--but they won't spend money for teachers or for schools. They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine--for people who can afford them. They consider electrical power a great blessing--but only when the private power companies get their rake-off. They think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.”

― Harry S. Truman

He had some good quotes

“Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a Republican. But I repeat myself.”
― Harry S. Truman


“Selfishness and greed, individual or national, cause most of our troubles.”
― Harry S. Truman

“Richard Nixon is a no good, lying bastard. He can lie out of both sides of his mouth at the same time, and if he ever caught himself telling the truth, he'd lie just to keep his hand in. ”
― Harry S. Truman

 

While we might have given them a bit more time, it would not have made a difference. The reason Japan did not immediately surrender after the Hiroshima bomb, had nothing to do with their lacking a full appraisal of the damage (come on!). They knew they'd been hit with a devastating weapon, against which there was no way for them to contend. But Japan's leadership was uncertain if that might have been the one and only bomb we had, in which case it would be foolish, to surrender after we'd fired our single bullet. We should only be thankful that the Imperial thinking had not required proof of a third bomb-- because that is something we did not have!

As for Cybred's comment: no goal, other than the ending of the war, would possess any legitimacy, in justifying or excusing the dropping of an additional, atomic bomb.

 

The US had bombed Tokyo, and something like 60 other city's the previous few weeks, causing over 100,00 deaths. USSR had within days of the first nuke, declared war on Japan, they knew they couldn't fight on two flanks

The second bomb was estimated to save 50,000+ US troops and untold hundreds of thousands of Japanese.

War crime? Perhaps

 

Truman chose to wipe out not one but two cities. Cities. not industrial targets. Cities. He was a war criminal who never got charged because he won a war. It doesn't make him less of a monster.

 

@DEFinning @JonK22

@drluggit does seem to have achieved his objective of hijacking this thread into the tower of nuclear warfare, somehow conflating the horrors of hiroshima with american fair deal "socialism."

on the numerous occasions we've had this discussion on pf, i seem to remember luggit's side, as the pro war america "right or wrong" party, as the defenders of using nuclear weapons, while we generally have more negative response. what in the world is going on here?

 

If the goal was to demonstrate the power of the weapon, in wasn't necessary to choose a city. It the Japanese had been witness to a demonstration, they would still have surrendered. Just my opinion. Truman did it to be cruel.

 

Not a question asserted. But since no Republican president with those weapons has actually used them, it begs the question of how you could make the assertion with the evidence that debunks your claim? Try a mirror.

 

~ If Japan or Germany had the atomic bomb before the USA you and I would likely not be here today. Perhaps you did not consider this ...

 

Hmm.. so, Hitler, targeting civilians was also a war criminal. Just cause one side engages in these crimes, does it make it ok in your mind? Really? The war with Japan could have been won without killing their cities. I've heard endlessly that we "saved lives" which again, is kind of true without actually being entirely true. Dropping atomic weapons on defenseless civilians was an act of terror and a war crime. Truman made that call. he's a monster.

 

I have, actually. Just because we got there first doesn't mean that what we (the US) did with it was the right thing to do.

 

no communist premier or chairman has used their weapons either. are you saying that republicans are more like communists?

 

Since you said it, does that make you a communist?

 

Republicans mostly rant about fake socialism

Policies that are considered tepid center-left in every other developed economy: universal health care, stronger welfare programs, and more redistributive taxes.

 

i am not now and have never been a member of the communist party.

i have sworn, several times, to uphold and defend the constitution of the usa against all enemies foreign and domestic. an oath that i take seriously, as i take my marriage vows.

"don't swear it if you don't mean it. " rampart

 

So you answered your own question. Ta Da...

 

When you are fighting monsters you must be not only a monster but a greater monster than your adversaries.Your pacifist ideals would have never worked.

 

Harry Truman was not a monster.