Peace Talks - Will Israel Really Withdraw?

regarldes of several parts that i disagree with you on, and other points taht agree on... i just have one question...

WHO THE HELL ARE MUHAMMADANS??

i mean according to you, they are Hamas, Hizbullah, Sadat, Nasserists, Ba'athists, Iraq, Iran, Arabs, Muslims, Suicide Bombers, Innocent civilians, Palestinians, non-jews, non-christians, non-westerns, Islamic world, Middle East, Bedouins, everything... WHO THE HELL ARE THEY...

 

Just the followers of Mohammad in any denomination, they could be Suni, shi'i, wahabi etc.,

 

Dis crazy Scotswoman says dey will fail as well!

Not because of the Iranian protests...but because neither Abbas or Netanyahu carry the confidence and approval of those who will object to it any settlement which does not give them what they want...using any means at their disposal. And any attempt to schmooze those who won't remove illegal settlements on one side and those who demand a right of physical return on the other have only a snowball's chance in hell of working.

But I am inclined to think that the whole thing will fall over East Jerusalem..and the military presence in the Jordan Valley. Because I don't think that Israel will ever give up any part of Jerusalem (which is not theirs anyway)...and the military presence in the Jordan Valley is simply a method of holding on to land.....because I can't remember the last time, since the Peace Treaty with Jordan was signed....any threat whatsoever to Israel from that source.

Do the Israelis really think the whole world is as stupid as the US Government?

 

You mean that stupid US government that has been able to tangle with extremist Islam? Still find ways of making deals and forming honorable relationships with Arabs and Muslims?

And it is not like we don't have our own problems on our Southern Border right? I mean why aren't we sending in F-16's and the 82nd Airborne Division to crush that pentulant Mexicans? Or might that be a a bad idea?

Perhaps it would be better for the stupid American government to work WITH the Mexican government to strengthen police agencies, reduce corruption, and bring pressure to bear on the illicit trade and violence plagueing the border?

Perhaps Israel could take a lesson or two from that stupid GEN Petreaus, and build relationships WITH the Arabs to help bring about regional stability rather than simply relying on brute force which has clearly not helped improve Israel's security in the slightest.

Maybe Israel can learn a thing or two from Clausewitz, and realize that shooting oneself into a fight is not the same thing as winning a fight a truly defeating your enemy. Israel 'won' in 1967, but it would seem the simmering rebellion and overt intifada's since then bely the reality of Israel's 'victory'? Shoudda read their Clausewitz.

Now Israel has used brute force to get into itself into a position where only a halocaust will break their adversaries (something Isreal could never do), and seem to proud to simply broker a deal and pull back to roughly its original borders. Apparently, the state of permenant Intifada and regional/world pariah, even as their population shrinks and the Arab population within grows is an acceptable and 'better' outcome for Israel than the one the stupid American government is attempting to broker on Israel's behalf?

RIIIIGGGGHHHHTTTT.

 

For those that are reluctant to grasp the intricacies of talks in general between the two parties when on one side Abbas cannot deliver and on the second Hamas belligerent attitude is on the verge of scuttling the talks in Washington...
Do not point the 'finger of your short sighted indignation at Israel when the Arabs already are not cooperating...

Here is the latest from Washington...

Erekat: We rejected proposal to form joint committees
Published yesterday 21:46 4 September 2010
www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=313166

AMMAN (Ma'an) -- During talks in Washington, Palestinian negotiators
rejected an Israeli proposal to form 12 joint committees, PLO chief Saeb
Erekat said Sunday.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu made the proposal during the
opening round of direct negotiations, re-launched after a 20-month hiatus,
Erekat said in an interview with the Jordanian daily Ad-Dustur.

The PLO official said Netanyahu proposed the committees in order to waste
time and postpone negotiations.

Concerning the absence of the Middle East Quartet from negotiations, Erekat
told the Jordanian daily the US administration said it represented the
Quartet.

Quartet representative Tony Blair attended a dinner on the eve of talks but
did not participate in meetings, while envoys from the EU, Russia and the UN
were absent from negotiations.

The US would head a meeting with the Quartet and the Arab League follow-up committee at the end of the month in New York, Erekat told the Jordanian
newspaper.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton would participate in the next round of
negotiations, scheduled to be held in the region on 14-15 September, Erekat
added.

The agenda for the summit had been set, the negotiations chief said, and
included all final status issues.

President Mahmoud Abbas would meet Netanyahu every two weeks, and the role of the PLO negotiations team was to prepare for these meetings, Erekat said, adding that agreements reached would be implemented within 12 months.



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IMRA - Independent Media Review and Analysis
Website: www.imra.org.il

 

PM's Office: Netanyahu didn't offer to form negotiation team

~Attila Somfalvi YNET Published: 09.05.10, 00:14 / Israel News
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3949313,00.html

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's media advisor Nir Hefetz denied reports
alleging Netanyahu suggested forming 12 negotiating teams and was refused by the Palestinians.

"Nothing of the kind has been suggested. On the contrary - Prime Minister
Netanyahu offer the Palestinians to hold accelerated talks, once every two
weeks, and in between, to have smaller, discreet meetings in order to
seriously and responsibly pursue a peace agreement," Hefetz said in a
statement.

--------------------------------------------
IMRA - Independent Media Review and Analysis
Website: www.imra.org.il

 

Netanyahu...

Now, a lasting peace is a peace between peoples -- between Israelis and
Palestinians. We must learn to live together, to live next to one another
and with one another. But every peace begins with leaders.

President Abbas, you are my partner in peace. And it is up to us, with the
help of our friends, to conclude the agonizing conflict between our peoples
and to afford them a new beginning. The Jewish people are not strangers in
our ancestral homeland, the land of our forefathers. But we recognize that
another people shares this land with us.I came here today to find an
historic compromise that will enable both our peoples to live in peace and
security and in dignity.

I've been making the case for Israel all of my life. But I didn't come here
today to make an argument. I came here today to make peace. I didn't come
here today to play a blame game where even the winners lose. Everybody
loses if there's no peace. I came here to achieve a peace that will bring a
lasting benefit to us all.

I didn't come here to find excuses or to make them. I came here to find
solutions. I know the history of our conflict and the sacrifices that have
been made.

I know the grief that has afflicted so many families who have lost their
dearest loved ones. Only yesterday four Israelis, including a pregnant
women -- a pregnant woman -- and another woman, a mother of six children,
were brutally murdered by savage terrorists. And two hours ago, there was
another terror attack. And thank God no one died. I will not let the
terrorists block our path to peace, but as these events underscore once
again, that peace must be anchored in security.

I'm prepared to walk down the path of peace, because I know what peace would
mean for our children and for our grandchildren. I know it would herald a
new beginning that could unleash unprecedented opportunities for Israelis,
for Palestinians, and for the peoples -- all the peoples -- of our region,
and well beyond our region. I think it would affect the world.
I see what a period of calm has created in the Palestinian cities of
Ramallah, of Janin, throughout the West Bank, a great economic boom. And
real peace can turn this boom into a permanent era of progress and hope.
If we work together, we can take advantage of the great benefits afforded by
our unique place under the sun. We're the crossroads of three continents,
at the crossroads of history, and the crossroads of the future. Our
geography, our history, our culture, our climate, the talents of our people
can be unleashed to create extraordinary opportunities in tourism, in trade,
in industry, in energy, in water, in so many areas. But peace must also be
defended against its enemies. We want the skyline of the West Bank to be
dominated by apartment towers -- not missiles. We want the roads of the
West Bank to flow with commerce -- not terrorists.

And this is not a theoretic request for our people. We left Lebanon, and we
got terror. We left Gaza, and we got terror once again. We want to ensure
that territory we'll concede will not be turned into a third
Iranian-sponsored terror enclave armed at the heart of Israel -- and may I
add, also aimed at every one of us sitting on this stage.
This is why a defensible peace requires security arrangements that can
withstand the test of time and the many challenges that are sure to confront
us. And there will be many challenges, both great and small. Let us not
get bogged down by every difference between us. Let us direct our courage,
our thinking, and our decisions at those historic decisions that lie ahead.

Now, there are many skeptics. One thing there's no shortage of, Mr.
President, are skeptics. This is something that you're so familiar with,
that all of us in a position of leadership are familiar with. There are
many skeptics. I suppose there are many reasons for skepticism. But I have
no doubt that peace is possible.

President Abbas, we cannot erase the past, but it is within our power to
change the future. Thousands of years ago, on these very hills where
Israelis and Palestinians live today, the Jewish prophet Isaiah and the
other prophets of my people envisaged a future of lasting peace for all
mankind. Let today be an auspicious step in our joint effort to realize
that ancient vision for a better future.

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IMRA - Independent Media Review and Analysis
Website: www.imra.org.il

 

Bendor, please just post the link rather than cut and paste of the entire thing. Or, at least paste only those portions of the link that are actually relevant IYO. What you are doing may very well violate copy right laws, and is a distraction to actual discussion.

 

This is the one and only post of yours I will respond to, because I find your posts after having skimmed a number of them to be so biased as to be unreadable.

First off, 242 does not make the settlements "illegal," it requires the 2 parties to agree to and achieve "negotiated and defensible borders." Read the resolution, its there for all to see.

And second, do not lecture the board about Israel's obligations under the UN charter, Israel is the ONLY nation singled out as being unable to serve on most UN committees, and is treated differently than any other member.

What IS clear is that the UN has failed Israel.

 

Your prior post was outstanding, kudos for it indeed.

I do disagree with one item in this one, where 2 or 3 years ago, you would have been correct, except with the economic explosion in the West Bank under Fayyed, the public acceptance and appreciation for Fatah is quite high. This is a major reason why Hamas won't allow new elections; they get crushed and voted out - in both the West Bank AND Gaza strip.

After the families of those killed this week, probably the people who hate Hamas the most right now are the business owners suffering in Gaza under Hamas' leadership, wondering why their West Bank counterparts are doing so well - and they aren't.

 

Funny, just a week or so ago when Israel got into a border skirmish with Lebanon, the UN sided with Israel and was a blessed organization for doing so.

By all means though, produce some proof that anything in UN law specifically bans Israel from serving in any capacity? Or might Israel have simply misunderstood the role of the UN as one of consensus? You know, that member states wishing to sit in these commitees, etc., have to have a consensus from the member states in order to allow ANY member to hold those positions. It is not the UN's fault that Israeli actions have provolked such extreme dislike that many member states will block Israel's participation in these committees as form of protest.

Would you prefer they took their disagreement into military arms? Expanded aid to Hamas and Hezbollah?

Or, gosh darn it, is having to work for something, having to actually solve problems too difficult for Israel? When an entire region disagrees with a policy, it might be best to at least listen to what they are saying rather than blaming the UN.

As for settlements we don't need the UN to tell us they are illegal. There is this thing called International Law, and you may want to check and see what it says about the duties of an occupying country. I assure you that it does not say, "Go ahead and colonize it and then wall off the territories inhabitants to make that colonization good!"

The simple fact of the matter is that Israel's colonization attempts have made peace and security more difficult for Israel. Getting into an arguement about the legalese of that reality helps neither Israel or the Palestinians.

 

So what are we to do about Hamas?

I have heard similar prediction about Hamas for years now, predictions that they are on their way out, weak, etc. And yet there they are, as strong as ever.

What you read as unpopularity, Palestinians read as a legitimate reaction to winning an election and then being denied the reigns of power and ability to govern. Why would Hamas do that again?

They were indeed unpopular after the previous drubbing they stupidly provoked from Israel, but they also just found a few loop holes in Israel's blockade. They are also garnering massive support for their information campaign highlighted by Israeli attacks of relief flotillas.

Like it or not, Hamas is here to stay. The trick is getting them BACK into the process, showing them that playing ball is the way forward. If we don't do that, then Hamas will do to the current peace negotiations the same thing it did to the last serious round.

We don't get to choose the enemies we make peace with. We either make peace with our enemies or we don't.

 

This is coming from a moderator? I thought at most respectable forums, the moderators are supposed to lead by example, and if not be perfectly unbiased, at least have to retain a veneer of credibility.

After seeing this garbage, I cannot understand who would even wish to engage this person in a conversation...

 

You really want to know? Conduct military strikes for the purpose of regime change in Iran.

Cut off the snake's head, and the funding, training, weapons, support, etc ends - and Hamas' primary lifeline and benefactor would no longer sustain it.

It would be like what happened to so many former communist nations after the USSR fell, without Russia to support them, they had to change their economic and political systems.

You think peace is difficult to achieve now?

While another war might be distasteful to some, the alternative to an emboldened Hamas and Hezbollah operating under an Iranian nuclear weapons umbrella would make peace impossible. It would lead to a massive war in the middle east - probably nuclear - down the road.

It is 1933, we have a chance to kill Hitler NOW, before they re-arm. This lack of action may haunt the West for decades...

 

The structure was set up so as to exclude Israel from serving on any committees:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf13.html#c

"srael’s membership in the WEOG is severely limited. Every four years Israel will have to reapply for membership, since its status is only temporary. Israel was not allowed to present candidacies for open seats in any UN body for two years and is not able to compete for major UN bodies, such as the Economic and Social Council, for a longer period. Also, for the first two years, Israeli representatives were not allowed to run for positions on the UN Council.

Besides these restrictions, Israel is only allowed to participate in WEOG activities in the New York office of the UN. Israel is excluded from WEOG discussion and consultations at the UN offices in Geneva, Nairobi, Rome and Vienna; therefore, Israel cannot participate in UN talks on human rights, racism and a number of other issues handled in these offices."

And I do not think it necessary to list how the UN Human Rights council has focused almost exclusively on israel with one resolution after another, nor do I think I need to raise the "zionism is racism" obscenity from 1975, perhaps one of the UN's lowest moments...

 

I see the zionist is spewing out his garbage all over this thread!

 

Israel carries out an incursion into the Gaza Strip on the first day of the renewed reconciliation talks.
Link

 

International Christian Zionist Center

5 September 2010

NO, NO, NO, THERE IS ANOTHER WAY

I Keep Judea and Samaria. These are disputed areas - not "occupied territories" even though the whole world labels them as such in its insistence that in its self-defensive war Israel took territories that did not belong to her. Jerusalem's official position on this must be changed and then adhered to: Israel liberated its own promised land from illegal occupation by the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan; an occupation rejected by the entire international community except for Britain and Pakistan, and which lasted from 1948 to the Six Day War in 1967.

II Israel should in no way fear a demographic problem arising out of keeping all Samaria and Judea, but face it vigorously with the following measures:
a) Make bringing Jews home from all over the world a top governmental priority, with an upgraded Ministry of Aliyah fielding the best candidates to explain abroad the need for aliyah.
b) Stimulate natural population growth by providing financial assistance to large families. Where possible there should be an overall effort to counsel against the evil of abortion, so that the tens of thousands of Jewish children that are being aborted every year will live - to be adopted if need be by Israeli families who would love to have children of their own.

III End all distinction or difference between those who desire to be loyal citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, imposing on all the same obligations and giving all the same rights. This includes the obligation to serve in the Israel Defense Forces. Such a move may cause a voluntary exodus of many of the Muslim Arabs now living in Israel with Israeli passports, for a great number would in all likelihood refuse to serve in "the Jewish Army" to defend a state which, in their heart of hearts, they wish to see become a Muslim-controlled Palestinian state. Their departure will free Israel from those who would otherwise use their citizenship to undermine the very state they are part of.

IV As Ambassador Yoram Ettinger and others like Paul Morland, Birkbeek College, University of London, have amply documented, there is in the foreseeable future no, I repeat no, demographic danger for Israel to hold on to all her G-d given land.
See Yoram Ettinger "Freeze of Jewish Construction in Judea and Samaria: Peace or Appeasement Enhancer" http://www.ourjerusalem.com/opinion...nd-samaria-peace-or-appeasement-enhancer.html
Paul Morland "Defusing the demographic scare" http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/defusing-the-demographic-scare-by-paul-morland-1.275657


Jan Willem van der Hoeven, Director
International Christian Zionist Center

 

The British Mandate for Palestine never promised the Jews an exclusively Jewish Homeland but instead offered a shared homeland for Jews with the non-Jewish population of Palestine. The creation of the Jewish nation of Israel was a direct violation of the British Mandate.

Those who cite the British Mandate are calling for a One-State solution where the nation of Israel would be abolished and a secular nation of the Jewish and non-Jewish residents would be established to replace it.

 

Countries can do whatever they want.

 

MYTH
"TheBalfour Declaration did not give Jews a
right to a homeland in Palestine.

FACT
In 1917,Britain issued the Balfour Declaration:
His Majesty's Government views with favor the establishment
in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will
use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this
object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done
which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing
non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political
status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

The Mandate for Palestine included the Balfour Declaration. It specifically
referred to "the historical connections of the Jewish people with
Palestine" and to the moral validity of "reconstituting their National Home
in that country." The term "reconstituting" shows recognition of the fact
that Palestine had been the Jews' home. Furthermore, the British were
instructed to "use their best endeavors to facilitate" Jewish immigration,
to encourage settlement on the land and to "secure" the Jewish National
Home. The word "Arab"does not appear in the Mandatory award.'!
The Mandate was formalized by the 52 governments at the League
of Nations on July 24, 1922.

Please STOP disseminating non factual innuendoes and hearsays!

 

Was that before or after Hamas killed 4 israeli civilians?

 

So according to you Hitler had a perfect right to institute and carry out the Holocaust, because it was an internal national matter?

 

Hamas's biggest supporters are the Saudi Government, not Iran, and teh Arab street. If you attack Iran, believing that one, you could defeat Hamas that way, and two, that the world would not react negatively, then you are fooling yourself.

The only thing such a strick will do is open the valve of Arab support to the Palestinians, convice the world that Israel has no serious desire to live in peace with its neighbors, and lock Israel into the most desperate form of combat it has seen since its birth through civil war.

Like it or not, Hamas represents a block of Palestinian political power, and it must be dealt with directly. 30 years of attacking it have only made it stronger. It is an illusion in the extreme to think military force applied elsewhere, indirectly against Hamas at best, is going to be the final coup that 'solves' Hamas for Israel.

 

Tell me, Americans are murdered in Mexico by violent drug gangs with alarming regularity.

Would it be helpful for us to send in F-16's to bomb people that may or may not have been linked to those murders? Or, going straight in with limited proof, might such actions actually feed the tit for tat rivalries whereby various gang members seek to use our power to remove or punish rivals?

Might it be best to cooperate with the Mexican police and strengthen them in order to bring them to justice and strengthen ... oh, the rule of law?

I mean does Israel bomb its own neighborhoods after a murder?

Then there is the fact that the West Bank does have a police force. Isreal DOES cooperate with it. But in this case it is apparently better to lash our violently and undermine rule of law and political dialoge so we can appear strong?

Not helpful to anyone. least of all the Israelis who still have to deal with the void in security and legality their actions create.