What does Zionism represent to you?

It is a simple question, one that cannot probably be answered in one simple line, since it is an idealogy that may represent many things, on many levels.

But let's try.

In 2011, what does Zionism most represent to you, when you hear the term?

I am interested to see the spread of opinion on this one, as I feel modern and personal definitions are important.

 

Doesn't it refer to a policy of territorial expansion by the current Israeli government? Sort of like Manifest Destiny, but with Palestinians instead of Native Americans.

 

As a followerof Judaism, Zionism is supporting my fellow religious followers, the Jewish state, the Hebrew people, and the tribe of Israel, the Luddites, from which I'm a descendant of.

 

Poll now added.

If none of those satisfy, please add your own.

 

Following them to do what?

Displace an entire people?

By means of force? To demolish their homes, build on their land, illegally, and then whine when they fight back, or will not accept this?

Many Diaspora are not supportive of this Israel, and I believe there is a growing awakening within a new generation of some Israeli people themselves.

Btw - You do know that those who made up Israel were not 'Hebrew', right?

 

I find that a rather dubious claim, and even if it were so, so what, quite frankly? What % of being of 'Hebrew decent' qualifies someone alien to that land to displace others from their homes, on land which they live on?

And that goes on, even today, for Zionism is an expansionist idealogy, among other things. It is not enough that it is disproportionately represented in US and even European politics, it also has designs on further illegal expansion.

Israel pay for people of 'Hebrew descent', to go 'home', only it is not their home, it is a home that has quite literally been ripped from the hands of another.

 

Well, let me inform that even before Muslims would lay claim to the land of Canaan, Hebrews were citizens in that land in the pre-diaspora era. It would be the Romans that forced Hebrews to leave the area, and eventually spread across Europe, developing into the Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews. These two groups of Jews would become the settlers of Israel after World War II.

 

Blah blah...look. You cannot have it both ways. The Jews of Europe considered themselves..European. But now you wish to lay claim to some 'right' under the absurd notion of having 'descended' from people, way back in history.

In their culture, they were European immigrants, who also happened to be Jewish.

However, none of this removes the small matter of what which is criminal.

Not only is it criminal to engage in a programme of systematic expansion and persecution, it is entirely immoral, and serves only to (wrongly), lead many people to look at Jews worldwide in an ever increasingly negative manner.

Trust me, if Israel continues ignoring international law, violation UN resolutions, engaging in war crimes, using collective punishment, holding thousands prisoner, without charge or knowlege of why they are being held (this is called kidnapping), if Israel continues in this path of arrogance, then it will fall on it's own sword, for sure, but there will be a backlash across the US and Europe, sadly, when the Gentile wakens to realise how much the political Zionist lobby are damaging them, their country, and their economy even, then there will be widespread anger. Diaspora Jews may well be on the end of that anger, even if they are not Zionist Jews, there is the danger of thinking that all Jews support Zionism, as described above.

They don't.

But when a backlash happens, it tends not to take that into account.

That is why Zionism is actually the true enemy of Jews.

So brutal is Zionism, so utterly ruthless, so parasitical, that it feeds the idea that all Jews = Zionism, and that is not true, there are many erudite Jews that speak out against it.

And they are a true treasure of humanity, imo.

 

I tend to disagree, even PM Benjamin Netanyahu proposes a two state solution.

 

I have two german shephard dogs, they are brothers from the same liter. zionist/US is one of those dogs. Axis of Evil is another one of those dogs. both of those dogs are sure they are right and that their own ass doesn't stink. I see this every single day, and the comparison could not possibly be any better.

 

He has no intention, no Israeli leader has ever been true to it.

Stop the illegal expansion.

Give back the land that has been stolen.

Cease to force Palestinians to live under a harsh military law.

Retreat to the original borders afforded, when Israel was created in the 40's.

Do you see him doing that?

Nah...me neither.

 

Your point somehow being that it is a tool used to keep the masses distracted from complaining about their lot, or thinking too much?

 

I agree with his intentions, although I'm disappointed with his actions. My proposal for a two state solution is as follows:

1. The Palestinian Authority must ensure elimination of Hamas and other militant groups as a detrimental influence to the negoitiation process.
2. The two state solution should be negotiated upon by only Israel and the Palestinian Authority, not through the United Nations.
3. The current borders must remain unchanged.
4. Construction of new settlements by Israel in Palestine must stop immediately.
5. Any Israeli citizens that have already settled in Palestinian areas must be guaranteed dual citizenship.
6. Jerusalem should become a free city.

 

If we limit the evil to Zionists or Jews, and assume that other criminals such as bushes, clintons, obamas are only pretend to be christians deepn inside zionists, and all the ignorant masses who elect them are only ignorant but really innocent, then I believe if we would come to conclusion that "eliminate Jews and the problem will be solved" we would wake up sorely mistaken, because evil extends much further then zionism or Judaism. I know for a fact that killing one of my two dogs is not the answer to a more peaceful place, and I manage to keep them together without any problems, because I understand them both, and I do not allow either one to be dominant, at the moment zionist world is clearly dominant, and I don't like this dog. thanks to the gods moses, and Jesus, the zionist world is deep in debt and a new world is coming. it will be led by rytis abrutis.

 

Dissapointment is something I feel when I get a dodgy jumper at Xmas.

What I feel about Israel constantly sticking two fingers up to international law, bulldozing the homes of people, displacing young families, turning Gaza into an open air concentration camp, what I feel about all of that is a little more than dissapointment.

I feel a revulsion.

The Zionist lobby are good at one thing, and that has been exploiting the German holocaust for financial and political gain.

Anyone can go read up and see that this is true, this is fact.

Indeed, even those that survived the Holocaust, they have been brave enough to speak out against what the Israelis are doing to the people of Gaza. They were once treated subhuman, and they do not want a nation that claims to be representative of them to treat other humans in a manner which they feel they were once treated. With utter contempt for their feelings, or needs.

Does it really get much lower that Zionists have literally turned it into a billion dollar industry, esp when evidence suggests that few of the survivors got little of this money?

For decades, the Zionists also realised they could silence political enemies in the US and Europe, in the US, if someone was critical of Israel, they were smeared as an anti semite (sic). In Europe, if someone did the same, the holocaust was brought out. Like I say, it takes an idealogy that is utterly in the gutter to be so cynical.

 

I haven't said 'evil' is limited to Zionism.

On the contrary, 'evil' manifests in a number of ways.

But I prefer not to deal in 'evil' per se.

I prefer to stick with international law, it may not be perfect, but like domestic law, it is generally there to benefit all, and if we have some that ignore it, chaos follows, right?

And there is no question, none at all, that the so called civilised state of Israel, that which is sold to you on US media, are anything but civil, since they habitually become the lawbreakers, essentially.

Zionism is not the only 'evil' - but, politically, it is today, perhaps the greatest.

 

Early results show that 40% think that it represents racism, apartheid, and a (false) ideal of Jewish racial superiority.

The remainder have, so far, voted for getting behind the idea of Israel 'having the right to exist'. It is vague and somewhat loaded, whenever you hear that, because the question should always be - 'Does (insert) have the right to exist, irrespective of how many laws it breakers, irrespective of how many war crimes'.

Did the National Socialist Movement have the right to exist, during the 30's and 40's? It too claimed to be of higher culture, and even, in their own way, a chosen people. Like I said, a dangerous notion, since by definition that means that anything that is not considered to be 'of your bloodline', is likely to be perceived as lesser than you. Which, oddly enough, always seems to lead to the persecution and large scale dehumanisation of others.

Israel has no right to exist, if by existing, they mean a continution of land grabbing, and sticking two fingers up to international law.

If it fails to do that, expect resentment across the world to grow against them, and I am not even speaking here of Arab nations.

I mean, by people in the US, and in the UK, who are tired of our politicians pandering to a lobby that damages US, the non Zionist Americans and British.

That is why I have every respect for the Jew who speaks out robustly against Israel and Zionism. Just as I would have respected the German that spoke out against National Socialism, or the Italian that spoke out against Italian Fascism. Those idealogies also had mass appeal, at one time.

But in our heart, surely we know that they are all sick and wrong?

 

Why 'must' they remain?

They are on stolen land.

That is illegal.

It is wrong to leave a crime.

Why should a thief that has settled in your home, through the use of force, why should they be guaranteed to remain in your home, or as someone that could come there, whenever they pleased?

There is no rational or ethical reason, unless you create one in an attempt to justify that which cannot be so.

 

Correct. that is my opinion as well. but I think it wouldn't take much for the other side to show their teeth if given a chance as well. zionist side has shown theirs, no doubt.

 

What IS the 'other side' to Zionism, which I have briefly illustrated as a racist, apartheid, land grabbing idealogy, that is like a criminal mafia, feeling it can operate outside of the law?

The other side, the opposite side to that is to oppose such an idealogy.

And so we should.

It should not even be political, but human decency alone should tell anyone that if your home, and those of your friends, were taken from you, by force, and you were displaced to live in an open sewer, that those responsible for the land theft and settlement are truly bad, not to mention breaking the law.

It then follows that anyone that invents a reason to 'explain' this, is really no better than the revisionist who invents a much water down account of the loss of all human life, in the Nazi holocaust.

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahHIOMwEL_o"]Zionism is Racism and racism is bad... - YouTube[/ame]

 

Zionism to me is a relgious term. Christians would interpret one way and Jews another.

I think the Jewish people believe they have a divine right to live in the land of their ancestors. The land of Israel being delivered to them by God. This definition is both ancient and current and is relevent. I'm sure you won't agree.

The Arab world (and increasingly others) seem to believe Zionism is something similar to Nazism as one of your choices indicates.

In my opinion the dark clouds of anti-semitism are quickly forming once again and Israel is being unjustly demonized by so many otherwise coherent people that I find it very scary. Israel is a prosperous democracy, the only one in the neighborhood, who welcome peace loving palestinians to live among them with open arms. If I had to live in the Mid-East, thankfully I don't, I would cast my lot with Israel.

 

Okay, point one, it is not that the 'Arab world' see Zionism as a form of Nazism - perhaps some do, and not without justification.

There are an increasing number of non Arabs who make legitimate comparions between some of the actions of Zionism and those of Nazism (National Socialism). And many of those are Jews. And many of those are people that either came through the interment of the Nazi camps.

Surely when those people make such comparisons, people must stop and ponder, they must open their eyes and their ears.

As I illustrated in my previous vid, the Jewish man speaking, he speaks the truth when he says that for a long time, Jews and Arabs lived in harmony in that region of the world.

It has only been since the creation of an almost exclusively Jewish state, followed by an influx of Europeans who happened to be Jewish, that chaos and persecution have followed. All people need do is join the dots.

The Zionist perpetuates the myth that Jews and Arabs could 'never' live in peace, side by side, but as I have just demonstrated, that is a LIE. They have, and they could again, but not while there are ongoing acts of land theft, displacement, and abuse of an entire people.

Like I say, Jews and Arabs lived in relative harmony, until the creation of the state of Israel. There was no inquisition by the Arabs toward Jews, nothing of the sheer history that Christianity may have, when it came to using torture to 'persuade' others to join their religion.

 

I am still afraid to speak my mind, sorry...