”Moderates” who won’t condemn Muslims cutting off hands, are they “extremists”?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by FreedomSeeker, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    "And the thief, male and female: cut off the hands of both, as a recompense for what they have earned, and a punish-ment exemplary from God; God is All-mighty, All-wise." -- Qur'an 5:38

    "This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corrup-tion there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off; or they shall be banished from the land. That is a degradation for them in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement" -- Qur'an 5:33

    Today, as we speak, Muslims are cutting off people’s hands (they are just obeying Mohammad), as this AP article shows! http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-09-10-13-57-32

    Questions for you:
    1. “True Islam” (ie believing Qur’an 33:21, and believing that Mohammad should be emulated) cuts off people’s hands. If you know someone who claims to be a “moderate” Muslim, then they would need to condemn Mohammad for advocating this barbarity....if they don’t, are they an “extremist” (or do “moderate” people in the 21st century approve of cutting off of hands)?
    2. Since Mohammad said to cut off people’s hands, and Qur’an 33:21 says he’s the ultimate role model for TODAY, is the only way to prevent this atrocity for Muslims to convert out of Islam, or to reform the Qur’an?
     
  2. Jefersonian

    Jefersonian New Member

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    They don't need to condemn Mohammed. That is like asking Christians to condemn Jesus or God for some of the truly stupid things they say in the Bible. They just need to ignore the morally reprehensible things in their respective books, and condemn the people who follow those things. Simple and effective. Shame they won't.
     
  3. MrConservative

    MrConservative Well-Known Member

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    Maybe these moderate Muslims living in predominantly Muslim nations fear reprisals from the radicals if they do speak out.
     
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  4. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    IF THEY ADMIT THEIR GOD (or prophet) IS IMMORAL THEN HE'S NOT REALLY "GOD", NOT IS HE!?

    Because if you ask them "is your god moral?", they'll answer, "yes, he's more moral than Richard Dawkins, for example". But their god is clearly not moral! WHY FOLLOW A BELIEF SYSTEM WITH AN IMMORAL GOD!? Why not move to modern Secular Humanism, where no blatant immorality really exists?

    You can do better than to follow an immoral god/prophet....your children deserve that. Or at least ask them to just ADMIT that their god is somewhat immoral (such as apparently approving of Mohammad's pedophilia, or Jesus' approval of slavery in the Bible.)
    Let's raise our standards, guys.
     
  5. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Do you condemn Islam for that, then?
     
  6. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    That's like if some Nazi during WWII said "I ignore the Holocaust, and I don't need to condemn Hitler, but I do condemn my fellow Nazis who follow the teachings of Hitler". That's insane! "Simple and effective is" (no offense), simplistic and effectively very stupid.
     
  7. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    okay :(
     
  8. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Yep, pretty much ALL religions, because they have a disconnect from reality, are fanatical/immoral fairy tales. But there is a clear, consistent, rational alternative, fortunately.
     
  9. OJLeb

    OJLeb New Member

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    Context, context, context...

    [5:38] [As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah . And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

    The very next verse...

    [5:39] But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    In other words, if the thief refuses to repent for the crime, THEN the punishment is to cut off his hand.


    [5:33] Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

    Just read the first 8 words of this verse.

    The following verse...

    [5:34] Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    So, even if those who wage wars against Muslims repent, they will not be harmed.

    That sounds pretty merciful to me.

    Alhamdulillah.
     
  10. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    OJLeb, I never thought I'd meet a person in 2012 that is fine with chopping off of hands, and crucifying, and other outrageous barbarity. You do so so easily, just like you'd so easily excuse Mohammed, if, repeat if, hypothetically say he did "thigh" a 6-year-old, and have full-blown sexual intercourse with her only about 36 months later. It blows my mind. A modern Secular Humanist is too moral to approve of barbaric punishments, and is too moral to excuse pedophilia (or at least would say that Qu'ran 33:21 is wrong, as Mohammad is not a role model for all time).
     
  11. MrConservative

    MrConservative Well-Known Member

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    I can't say. I've never even read the Koran. What do scholars whom had studied Islam have to say about the religion. An 8 year old can pick and choose which verses to use to judge the religion.
     
  12. 4Horsemen

    4Horsemen Banned

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    99.99% of all Muslims look past Muhammed's dirty deeds to kids. and they mainly focus on his quest to spread Islam. Not that Islam has any truth or prophecy, but just to spread it.

    Because in order to have prophecy, something from that book had to have happend after the book was written. not one word in it is prophetic.
     
  13. SFJEFF

    SFJEFF New Member

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    Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

    You would agree then that real Christians would demand that a woman's hands be cut off if she grabs the other man's penis?
     
  14. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    If you were a thief and got caught would you rather get your right hand cut off or serve 10 years in prison? Or would you rather be sold into slavery?

    Exodus 22:3 (CEB) = However, if this happens in broad daylight, then the one who killed him is guilty of bloodshed. For his part, the thief must make good on what he stole. If he has nothing, he must be sold to pay for his theft.
     
  15. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Any person who agree's with forcing religious belief on others through physical violence (Law) is an extremist.

    The founders on Theocracy:

    The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
    -- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

    Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
    -- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

    Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
    -- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88 ) , from Adrienne Koch, ed, The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258

    As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

    When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it.-- John Adams, from Rufus K Noyes, Views of Religion, quoted from from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief
     
  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So why do some Muslim nations cut off hands and other barbarian punishments ? Do these theocratic nations not understand the Qu'ran/Sura's
     
  17. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thanks for posting the relevant blood curdling passages from the Koran. Let’s admit however, the Old Testament is riddled with equally nasty passages. The real enemy here though is the absurd acceptance of political correctness in the west which tills us we’re forbidden to criticize the contents of so called holy books. Sadly bibilical/koranic scholarship has been left almost exclusively in the hands of the religious when all of us concerned with the viciousness of such ‘Godly’ manifestations as sharia law should be acquainting ourselves with the contents of these evil texts on the principal of Know thine enemy.
     
  18. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I certainly understand Sura 3.V 7-11 and it’s abominable meaning. Do you?
     
  19. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Christians do not have a mandate to follow the Old Testament as law. Those are Jewish laws, and included in the Christian Bible for historical context. Christians (should) follow the teachings of Christ as he is recorded in the New Testament. I don't recall Christ promoting the removal of anyones hands.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    What the heck are you trying to propose we do?

    Are you advocating holy war? Are you suggesting the death penalties and slavery in the Bible are better than the death penalties and slavery in the Qur'an?

    There are lots of countries that have brutal laws and aren't Muslim.

    I just don't understand what you are trying for here.
     
  21. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Whilst in general agreing with your take on this too many churches justify their primitive prohibitions by quoting the Old Testament.
    Why none have thrown out that collection of ancient myths and its unpredictable, vengful deity is a puzzle.A misguided belief the Old Testament proves Jesus is the messiah? Nice try.
     
  22. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe a hint portraying The God of the Koran and of The Old Testament as an all loving, all merciful deity many claim him to be is a nonsense?
     
  23. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You won't find me in agreement with much of what churches say and do. Most of them are 501c3, which makes them (imo) paid mouthpeices for the establishment. Propaganda machines masquerading as 'holy men', twisting scripture to bend their flocks to the will of social engineers. But thats what established religion has always been about.
     
  24. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No really, we should pray (just kidding) the churches don’t return to the days before they were mere propaganda machines for the state and become again the state themselves.
     
  25. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you would have read the post to which I was responding to - you would know the answer to your question.
     

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