19 dead from suspected suicide blast

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by 22catch, May 22, 2017.

  1. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    I know what side I am on...do you?
     
  2. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    That is not what we were discussing. We were discussing who makes the decision to act in the first place.
     
  3. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    @alexa
    Thank you for your reply.

    Our government does believe in advancing human rights across the globe.
    I hope to god that this is not it's primary motive in any war because I feel he cost of war outweighs such a gain.

    But I think my government does believe in this. Many times I wish it did not.

    What our government accepts... who it is able to rule.... is very limited. It struggles to rule me, let alone an Egyptian, let alone every Egyptian.
    It likes to stick it's oar in and indeed just one small gram correctly applied to a balance can tip it either way.
    It tries but there are no guarentee's of success. No magic wands to be waved.

    They aren't killing each other in the street in Egypt. It's an improvement. Sure we could invade and kill some in the street ourselves, but that doesn't help. We are not gods. Just men.
    Can't make the world into the utopia of your choice. Not within our ability. Democracy or Communism. Christianity or Islam. No ideology can change our nature. We are the way we are for a reason. We didn't all just wake up one day and decide to be a puss.
    By and large we are motivated by the desire to do good. To help.
    Most people are, even Johnny Muslim Bomber thinks he's doing the world a favour. He gives his life for the greater good.

    Man is not motivated by evil. Not even us.

    The world is not safe. if you took all the people out of it. It would still... not be safe.
    This country is pretty damn safe. My house is pretty damn safe. Anywhere I am, pretty damn safe. Best I can do. Can't be in two places at once though. practicalities and all that.


    We haven't supported any bloodbaths or been involved in any. Sorry, didn't happen.
    Bloodbaths may have happened. But it wasn't us and we didn't encourage it.

    That's not to say we don't kill our enemies in battle. We do. Good. They should surrender.
    Life would be better for them and all around them if they did.

    Our bloodbaths prevent bigger bloodbaths. And as much as you don't wish to think about that, it's true.
    Matey I watched the Iraq war on TV and it brought me to tears.

    But no part of our involvement in it did. I watched them screaming and running from a suicide bomb in a market place on Christmas day and I couldn't stop crying.
    But it was not us. We were the ones who sent policemen to stop it. They who died to stop it? Respect is due.

    We went to Libya to stop it. We stopped it.
    Didn't make Libya a wonder place. Stopped the genocide though.

    It is in our selfish self interests for the world to be a nice place. Each and every one of us. Not just you.


    Consciencious objector, I'll live with. Killing isn't for everyone. Make no mistake though it's a mark of shame. A social irresponsibility to let others take your share of the guilt in your place. An act of cowardice to refuse to protect those weaker than you.

    Fifth columnist, not so much.
    Enemy is enemy. I can't help where you were born. If my enemy is born right next to me... he's still my enemy.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  4. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so how do you explain the fanaticism of this post
    This is not true. The only person I can imagine imagining it would be an extremist Christian - between them and Muslims this may be the case.

    I see. Well if you are from the US everyone except China and Russia had better take care. You believe in the genocide (destruction) of those you consider your enemy. I think you are a very dangerous person. Do you think this view is common in your country?
    Who calls you the great Satan and says 'Death to America'? Why do you think they are so angry with you? Do they have the ability to cause you harm?

    What does this have to do with your believe that Islam has been your enemy throughout history?
    As above and be careful. Being gay in some US states was not made legal until 2003. Indeed as late as 2014 there were still quite a few anti gay laws in the US

    U.S. hypocrisy over Russia’s anti-gay laws

    and are you trying to tell me you are unaware of the strong anti gay sentiment there is among a fair section of the US. Are you unaware that the neo cons and the US Christian Right have been working in Africa to get them to make homosexuality illegal - even encouraging the death penalty and telling them that homosexuals are demons who will destroy them.
    http://www.academia.edu/1053858/Loc...d_Human_Rights_in_Uganda_s_Gay_Death_Penalty_

    http://www.alternet.org/story/14520...tigay_theocratic_effort_'transforming'_uganda

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-kapya-kaoma/the-us-christian-right-an_b_387642.html

    (It isn't limited to Uganda)


    Also Christianity is very prominent in US politics. I can remember hearing Bush say when talking about Muslim extremists that they did not understand that US Christians were pretty much the same - sort of like 'we can give that too if you want to try it'. Why do you have 'in god you trust' on currency and why are you always saying 'God Bless America' unless this guy is really pulling your strings. Like I said the Christian Right still causes a lot of harm in the world.

    As above and

    http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/interview-evangelical-christianity-devils-in-high-places-1524855

    and then of course Chris Hedges and others believe that if/when the US moves into fascism it will be the Christian Right ideology they will be following - of course all the easier if Trump is impeached and you have Pence - and some of them believe in stoning of women for adultery and believe that you will no longer need any courts as they will just summary execute offenders. You maybe should be looking closer at home before you speak.


    Ah right so no problem with you if the Christian right take centre stage in the US. You sound like the fascism is well set in already.
    Historically Islam offered safety to gays escaping the death sentence in the UK. Like Christianity most Muslims now say it is a sin. This will change in time. The rights given to women vary and again are not that great among your Christian Right's thinking. For a very large part of history Muslims were far more liberal than the Christian West. Only in the latter part of the 20th Century did the West make being gay legal - in the states not until 2003 removing anti gay laws and only in the second half of the 20th Century did it give women in theory equal rights - though not yet in reality.
    Above you describe people who support Muslims, gays and women as having dysfunctional thinking. However your enemy must, which ever side you really are on, include many many of your own people.
     
  5. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Well-Known Member

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    You should consider things more carefully. The separation of church and state is well-established and longstanding in western countries, there are just vestiges of the influence of Christianity in a few countries, and usually it's more like of "any religion" (as in "endowed by the Creator...") than specifically Christ (or some other). The modern western state is affirmatively secular and all feature a vociferous community recurringly denouncing any reference to religion (you don't have to swear on a Bible in court).

    In antiquity westerners, like Muslims today, were taught that laws emanated from heaven, god delivered the Ten Commandments, Shakespeare has a scene (I think in Henry III) where a bunch of Cardinals are interpreting Salic Law to support his claim on the French throne. After the fall of the Roman empire the only people who could read were monks compiling manuscripts and for centuries rulers relied on the Church to interpret and write law. Nowadays there are only a few governments which will accept religious baptismal, marriage and funeral records for official purposes, most require some secular process for such purposes.

    I don't have all the details on modern Muslim states and how their governments relate to Islam, but I know there is a lot less secularism. In most Muslim countries the government builds and maintains the schools where clerics are trained, pays the salaries of their teachers (this was a demand Muslim clerics made to the French government a couple of years ago -as a way to offset the influence Saudi contributions for this purpose has in France now). We know Sharia Law, which is entirely of religious origin is enforced by the police and judiciary of numerous Muslim countries, and applied regardless of the faith of the citizens. In Morocco last year the police arrested and the court sentenced youths for eating before sunset during Ramadan. These are countries where church and state are much closer than in the west, and this is how most Muslims (even non-fundamentalists or extremists) prefer things, this is the way the ones who live in the west want things too.
     
  6. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    No it's not.

    it's typically integrated in most western countries.

    America is the one with the seperation. I don't know if it's separated in any other western country. France? They modelled their republic on America, so maybe.

    Off the top of my head. The head of state in the UK is also head of the church/state religion.
    Churchmen have permanent seats in parliament.
    Catholics are not allowed to rule.
    National anthem craps on about God.
    Same as Iran!
    New heads of state are coronated by the Church. And so on.

    Germany's ruling party is probably the Christian Democrats.

    The Pope's got his own country.

    Anachronisms abound!


    I think America is something of an exception in this, rather than the norm.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  7. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

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    oh, collateral damage i got you. ye, 100 dead women and children in one airstrike, collateral damage, sigh, change the record sam.

    At the end of the day you cant fight guerilla tactics with airstrikes, thats basic stuff but then again, its looking more likely that the aim of the game is total chaos on earth so ye, the airstrikes kind of play into that scenario nicely.
     
  8. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

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    oh, so you believe you are evil and they are good.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  9. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    You can claim all you want church and state are separated in the west. But that goes for the church not having a say in governmental issues. Instead of that, Christians and Jews have all the say in the government. I gave you examples of the US, UK, and the Netherlands. How about Merkel. She is from the party called CDU. Have a freaking wild guess what the C means. Germany/West Germany has been ruled by the Jesus party since 1982! Oh yeah... that is real secular.
     
  10. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    So what?
     
  11. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    There is a saying.

    Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me.

    My own bar for enmity may be set higher than this. That seems to me to be more of a minor annoyance.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  12. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  13. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Killing people in the street is killing people in the street.
    Calling me names, is calling me names.

    For me there is a difference in severity.
    I expect to become violent if I witness one, but not the other.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  14. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Well-Known Member

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    Your example from the US is the text "In God We Trust" on their currency, from Holland it was something similar, which "god"? No doubt whoever coined the phrase (centuries ago) meant a Christian god, but nowadays anything goes, the term "god" is universal and modern western society tell us this includes a jewish Jehova, Buhdda and Allah (and anything else anyone thinks is divine).
    "Christian" Democrats in Europe are just moderate socialists, they aren't anti-abortion or conservatives, they're better described as "social democrats". Merkel's immigrant-friendly policy in large measure reflects their ideology. It is "Christian" to succor the poor, shelter the needy and welcome the refugee.

    I am European, I know very well the state of Christianity in contemporary Europe, it is insignificant, the churches (Catholic and Protestant) are empty, expressions of Christian faith deemed retrograde. Curiously in Europe expressions of non-Christian faith are celebrated and promoted (this is about lefty inclusiveness -atonement for perceived "sins").
     
  15. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Who is guilty, the man that kills or the person that hires or supports him? I say both. To support terrorism is in itself terrorism. Egypt is doing some bombing also.
     
  16. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Certainly the relevance of religion in modern life seems waning in my country.

    The integration of state and religion of course was not brought about by any ideological desire. It was born out of a practical desire for unified rule. A merging of power structures. A merging of state apparatus.

    Religion used to run all the schools and hospitals for example. Poor houses and the like. It would have strong houses for the populace in case of attack and so on.

    In the UK, the state grabbed religion and integrated it because up until then, the Pope ruled Europe.
    It was a straight forward political powerplay. A revolution in politics.

    The same thing was happening all across Europe at this time (and at all times to some degree or other).
    To escape this political oppression. Off shoot or rebellious religious types fled to America.
    I wonder if it wasn't the bampot and zealous nature of these settlers that prompted America to go for separation of powers. I don't expect that America was atheist in spirit at that time. Most likely is they did not want religious wars/power struggles breaking out in the USA.

    This is my hypothesis. For whatever it's worth.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  17. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    awe ;)

    No sorry. It is well known that one of the besetting sins is that rights are only for home pleasure. Our leaders will support whatever is in their interests. Even a lot of aid is not what it seems - for instance we put a lot of money into the White Helmets in Syria - they are strongly believed to not only be ex radicals but also the perpetrators of false information - which is for instance why you cannot take as true 'evidence' they produce to show that Assad has been gassing people. He might have been but given their lack of impartiality this cannot be taken on their word. A lot of our aid is of that sort of thing. Britain wants Assad removed. They, like the US, have been actively working on that.

    Our Government does not work on morality. It works for who pays it. So we support Saudi Arabia and they bomb Yemen where there is currently another disaster. When out of the blue someone comes around who does not go with this - who is not interested in supporting neo liberalism and Corporate Power, someone like Corbyn and regardless of your views on him I trust you are aware of that too - when what happens then is that even the right of the Labour Party is willing to destroy the Labour Party if that what is needed. Our Parliament supports neo liberalism and Corporate Power which has led to us having about the same amount of inequality as we had a hundred years ago and made social mobility almost zero. We are a Plutocracy (ruled by the most wealthy) Our government serves them. Their interest is more profit.

    The issue of aid is interesting as through that and the Government's insistence on continuing to give it you can argue that they care in helping those with nothing but as I said I am not sure how much of this is really aid rather than our warfare in disguise - for instance financing (giving aid) to the white helmets, previous radical Islamists, in order that propaganda can come out to get public opinion in favour of attacks against Assad.

    We should very rarely go to war - only when needed for self defence. When we do go to war we should obey the rules of war. The Iraq war was illegal, the Afghanistan one unnecessary as the Afghans wanted rid of the Taliban and asked for time to do it 'largely in a psychological way', the Libyan war was authorised by the UN but did not follow what was allowed. It caused absolute havoc. People are still dying in Iraq, babies in particular from cancer caused by the US's illegal use of White Phosphorous. We have no need to be involved in these wars. The response we are now seeing from Radical Islam is a direct response to our wars. No, nobody who saw these people as human beings like we see each other could do this to other human beings. We, UK through Blair, also encouraged the EU to bring out Alastaire Crooke the MI6 man who was making good progress with Hamas and decided instead to pretend Hamas was the same as Al Qaeda and give Israel the right to build prisons for political activists and go in bombing largely civilian populations. In this way we allowed Israel to carry on taking over more and more of what was to be the Palestinian State. We do not see the Palestinians as people - or rather our Government does not.

    No, do not worry, they do not. Now sometimes people in Parliament might but unfortunately since the 80's they have learnt which way their bread is buttered and you only get this on things like back benchers debates - what I am saying here is that yes, you are correct that there are some people who care about the rules of war and can see for instance that the Palestinians have been treated abominably - something for which we bear a direct responsibility - yes, there are many politicians who do care but their voice is silenced - of course on that one you have the Israeli lobbying and interfering with Parliament as shown in the Aljazeera secret taping. So yes, there are people interested in acting in a lawful way but in the main now our Parliament knows which way its bread is buttered. I'll tell you one thing. Ruth Davidson was muttering in the Scottish debate about having to go Brexit in order to avoid civil disorder. Got me wondering are they doing a hard Brexit because they are genuinely afraid of that - or are they doing it because they believe it is going to suit neo liberals and corporate power which is the more likely reason using the fear of civil disorder as an excuse.

    The interest is more economics. It is not about ruling you although to a large extent that is done through social conditioning and the law.

    change comes when people work for it. For instance only about thirty years ago if you were standing in a supermarket you very likely would see an irritated mum slap her child's hand but since it has become illegal to hit kids at school I cannot remember when I last saw a kid hit.

    just mass murder and disappearance of Sisi's opponents. I have often wondered what happened to Abu Sina - he was an Egyptian and disappeared shortly after the coup - from the forum, hopefully not from Egypt! We had one or two other Egyptians who came on desperate for help but of course the West only supports democracy if people vote for the 'right' party.

    No it is not.

    Egypt is enacting authoritarian laws at a rate unmatched by any regime for 60 years, legal specialists from four institutions have told the Guardian.

    You don't need to. They are doing very well on their own. I have somewhere a brilliant article which so neatly shows how Morsi was had. Egypt now is more authoritarian than it was before the 'revolution' with the army having just waited it's time and taken over. However it has about the worst human rights in the world now.

    UN Declares Israel As Having World’s Worst Human Rights
    https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/country-chapters/egypt

    Which leaves it where I came in. You say we are a great, tolerant society. I say only at home. We support countries with the worst human rights in the world, we as the West have destroyed democracies because they did not suite our leaders or 'deep state'. We are not as you implied moral or superior.

    Research suggests there is no such thing as human nature. We do know however the sort of environments people thrive best in.

    A Christina monk believes we are born originally good but after we have been treated as not so for enough time that we start to believe it, we stop doing good. He believes the 'origin of sin' is not feeling good about yourself'. I think he is right.

    That is true and that is the reason why if we want to change things we need to find out why they are happening. Not all but the majority of Muslim bombers also seem to be people with not all that much to live for.


    What even you and me? I think evil is generally a word used in order to treat the person inhumanely. Most people have a reason for why they act the way they do - politically in the UK we used to look at that a lot. We stopped after 9/11 and people became 'evil'. Then we got into wars and mass killing instead.

    The world is monstrously less safe and more cruel than it was the day before 9/11. Those in charge for the past 20 years have created a hell that is going to be extremely difficult for the Millennials to clear up.

    :banana:



    You are wrong. I'll tell you another thing. It has always surprised me when discovering some dirty deed that they US has been up to - for instance the financing and training of fanatics from Arab countries in preference to Afghans who wanted democracy to fight for Afghanistan to find....the UK always seems to be tucked in quietly there with them even when, as in this instance we were not to my knowledge involved in the Afghan/Russian/US war and it happens as I said again and again.

    While I accept that British soldiers used to be of a fairly high standard in what was expected of them in obeying rules of war and so on - not least because the public demanded it in Northern Ireland and I can remember after Kosovo hearing talk that they were going to have to start looking for a different type of soldier as their main activity in the future was to be peace keeping - wow think of that, a world we blew away. I am not sure however whether British soldiers may be moving into accepting it is part of war to kill those who do not need to be killed - that is to go against the rules of war. I fear we may be moving in that direction.

    Our values have changed Baff. That is the difference. We also were for a while a democracy - now we are a plutocracy and may well move into fascism. Unless we change politically - that is to a different economic system than neo liberalism and Corporate power, we are going to see even in this country poverty increasing. With that no doubt there will be added encouragement to see 'the other' as to blame. As for wars well use your imagination. I am too tired for more :) - but these are the reasons I vote for Independence because I do not fancy that for my grandchildren.
    we should only be fighting wars for self defence.
    actually 'our' meaning the West and particularly the US and Britain's blood baths have created the never ending bloodbaths which are going on still in the middle east and likely to go on a whole lot longer. There is no way out of it.

    Yes I watched it on tv as well. However our armies got wise after the Vietnam War. Reporters are very limited in what they can bring you which is a sanitised version with their slant on it. People who choose to go 'freelance' tend to end up dead as happened to at least one of our reporters.

    OK
    The fact of the matter is we should not have been in Iraq fighting. Before we went in our intelligence reported that there were no Al Qaeda types in Iraq - you may remember that was part of the propaganda. They also said however if we invaded Iraq that was very likely to a) bring such people into Iraq and b) also bring Muslim terrorism to the UK. While what you said may be true, it does not change the reality that without that illegal war we would not have over a million Muslims deaths, ISIS and the never ending wars with millions of people made homeless and now refugees. We decided to change the ME - many believe to please Israel and in so doing we have destroyed the middle East and let loose all hell.
    Are you kidding? Stopped it? Do you have any idea what the two Libya's are now. Gadaffi was right. If you came in destroying him you were going to set loose a fest of extremists. We went into Libya claiming that we were going to save civilians who loud mouthed Gadaffi said he was going to kill. We destroyed their country and they all live now in continual hell. Christians are rounded up and beheaded. There are basically two Libyas. Not only that but Libya was holding up migrants trying to come to Europe. Now we are out at sea day and night rescuing them. Bad bad move for both control of oil and regime change. Regime Change was against the UN ruling.


    Ok glad you like the idea. You need however to be in charge of the facts. There was never any Kumbya about Iraq or Libya. Iraq was an illegal war fought on false pretences which set going the situation we now have in the ME including the terrorism in Europe. Libya was regime change. Both led to failed states and mass rise in radical extremis.
     
  18. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    cont'd
    No that is not what a conscientious objector is. Though interestingly I know someone whose father was one in ww2 and who grew up being taught his father was just as you say. For most people it took a lot of strength not least because that was how they were seen.

    I have no idea what you are talking about here. Oh, it is finished!!!!:applause:
     
  19. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Well-Known Member

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    An interesting observation. To me it seems the "Puritan" ethic prevails among the gringoes, one cannot purchase alcohol after 2am, restrictions of it's use based on age, preclusion of purchase on Sundays, excessive restrictions on nudity, coddling children, excessive concern over the expression of obscenities... to me reflect that "puritanical ethic".

    In Spain children consume alcohol (with lemonade) at a family's pic-nic, without fear of Social Service police enforcement.

    Religious war was rife at the time the gringan founding fathers drafted their incorporation.
     
  20. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    @ Alexa, well I'm as cynical about the self interested motives of our politicians as the next man.

    But in this regard all of our self interests are the same. We all want a peaceful and happy world.
    Me, you and Miss World. Tony Blair too.

    That is in all of our self interests.

    What we don't all usually agree is the optimum way of getting one. Or how much effort we are willing to make towards that goal.

    I don't feel my government works for who pays it. I don't think they even know who pays it. I think they forget every time they sign a cheque with someone else's money.


    There is a duality in British politics. A conflicting set of goals amongst the populace.
    I'll set the scene with a historical analogy. Athens. The first democracy.

    The men would all vote for war, get in their ships and sail off to battle. And when they did, that left the women in charge and they all voted the men back home again.


    Fast forward to the Iraq war. Hawks like me, just want it over. Finish it. No more camping on the borders at a zillion pounds per day forever. Just finish it. So we can come home.
    Invade. Kill, destroy. Come home. Threat disarmed. Job done.

    But for some people that's evil. War is evil. For those people war must only be something good.
    It has to be "humanitarian". A humanitarian war. (Which fills me full of ROFL).
    We can't go to war for oil. We can't go to war for our allies America.
    We can only go to war to be humanitarian. to be nice to people. (I face palm even as I write the words).

    So to justify an unwelcome war to "the Athenian women" we tell them it's humanitarian. it's not about oil and hegemony.
    It's about saving lives.
    And so for half the populace the war is about revenge and security of our allies and strategic control over resources, And that is worthy expenditure of blood and treasure.
    And for the other half of the population that is deepest evil. Unworthy.

    And so they sell two conflicting stories at the same time. We are going to war because we are badasses vs we are going to war because we are saints.
    All things to all men.

    So we invade , kill destroy,and disarm, but we can't come home. Because having appeased the hawks, we now have to appease the doves too and make Iraq a utopia. Only it isn't one, never has been and we've just smashed the place up to boot..

    So our values haven't changed. We just don't all share the same ones. Or not to the same degree's.
    What you want from war, what you labelled victory, is what I label as defeat.

    My bit, easy victory. The build a new utopian society bit.... Defeat.
    Iraq war. You see defeat. I see victory.
    Because we were never on the same page. My values haven't changed, your values haven't changed.

    In the event of no Brexit. I will either become insanely civilly disorderous, massively lethal.
    Or I will emigrate.
    I applied for jobs and citizen ships abroad to take myself out of it in the run up to the referendum that the polling had lead me to believe I would lose. I could not live here in that shame and not fight. maybe I could, who knows, but the risks of me losing my rag were too high. I decided to emigrate.

    Start pissing around with "soft Brexit" or any of the rest "second referendum" "new mandate for Brexit".
    And I fully expect civil disorder. Fully expect more traitorous politicians murdered in the street like Ghaddaffi.
    Fully expect it. Worry I might be involved in it.

    To the point where I arranged my emigration in the run up to the referendum.
    So yeah. I see her point. I really do.

    I don't give a damn about democracy. better a good dictator than a bad elected PM.
    Nor is it my concern or business what methods of government someone else uses.
    Democracy is not my religion. Not an ends in and of it's self.
    It is a tool for governance. A method of rulership. My leaders assure me it's the best one out there. Well they would say that if it put them in power. Wouldn't they.


    Economics.
    Economics is used to describe the trade interactions between people. To measure them.
    There is no "new system of economics" because economics isn't a system at all. It's simply a study of human behaviour.
    Trend spotting.

    If human behaviour changes, economics measures that change.

    So new systems of commerce. Old ones, capitalism, communism. Barter system. Fiat money. New ones? Bitcoin?
    I don't see any new ones to be honest. I need some help here with that.

    Bloodbaths, we don't do. Sorry. That's not us. And it's not often the Americans either. Although since they do the bulk of the fighting, they get the bulk of the kills, plus the bulk of the overkills and accidents and all the rest.
    looking under the microscope, you will see bloodbaths in every speck. But pan out and you will see, we don't do them.
    We are surgical. We practise something we call... heroic restraint.
    No one does it better than us. No one.

    So if I drop a bomb on Saddams army and kill a hundred. How many did I save? How many were that hundred going to kill if I let them live? Yes we kill. But we kill as few as can to get the job done. and that is far fewer than we used to need to and far fewer than anyone else. We are masters of war.

    Alexa we did not make the civil war in Libya.
    We turned up in the middle of a genocide and stopped it. They went nuts and we intervened.
    You want to blame us for Libyans killing each other or having a rebellion and a civil war.
    Every war in the world is caused by us. No. We are not gods. it is not all caused by us. All evil is not caused by us or America.
    We fix what we can.
    We are not gods. We do not control everything you can think of.

    You want a utopian Libya. go there and try and build it yourself. See how you get on.

    Your expectations are simply ridiculous.
    No one can do what you ask. You set an impossible task in your mind and then complain unreasonably that no one has achieved it for you.
    We are going to make utopias everywhere. No we are not. You can't even make one in Scotland and you live there, what hope have you in war torn Libya?

    If you put us on a hiding to nothing we will fail. In Libya a massacre was about to occur.
    A murdering horde was advancing on an undefended city.
    The French said "lets stop this from happening. We should and we can."
    Mr Cameron agreed. Mr Obama agreed. and we did.

    Now we didn't save the world or turn Libya into Beverly Hills, but we stopped the genocide.
    Stopped it dead.
    And as bad as you think Libya is now, it could have been so much worse. Would have been so much worse.
    My friends dad is there now. Training. Helping.
    Doing his little bit.
    His son is very proud of him. I encourage that.
     
  21. goody

    goody Banned

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    Now I release a secret; vault #0 :

    Manchester attack was done by the United States of America. Isis is Arab NATO created by the US. Even the cousins do something wrong - like declaring "golden age" with China as if Brexit wasn't enough- ISIS gets put in the game and directed right at the heart of the cousin's house. Deep state makes no jokes.
     
  22. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

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    Sadly, the US is very much like ISIS but you hide your atrocities better and have better PR people.
    You also have the advantage of most of your public believing your politicians' lies.
    Your rather nasty politicians have order massive bombing campaigns all over the world that have resulting in countless civilian deaths but you don't claim your attacks, you hide them, deny them and lie about them.
     
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  23. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

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    I'm on the side of peace and reason.
    Once the US stops killing people with its terrorist attacks it will stop getting hit by terrorism.
     
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  24. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

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    The US did arm and train ISIS is Syria so there's at least a level of truth in that.
     
  25. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. You can't reason with religious fanatics.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
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