A Very Simple Reality.

Discussion in 'Science' started by tecoyah, May 29, 2018.

  1. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member

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    If you stop to think about it for even one minute, this whole Climate Change/Global Warming debate is rather pointless. If deniers are correct then no one has anything to worry about. If they are incorrect no one can do anything to prevent the inevitable.
    It seems we argue for the sake of arguing and accomplish nothing. Deniers are better off getting some beer and BBQing and believers should be planning for what will happen.

    Am I Right or What?
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm not so sure it is quite that binary.

    We can slow the rate even if we can't stop it. That offers the chance of reducing the final maximum.

    Plus, slow means more time so we have more of a chance to adapt without there being mass migrations of starving people and other such possible serious eventualities.

    Of course, "planning for what will happen" is essentially pointless if we're going to continue electing representation intent on blocking both direct action on change and movement on adaptation. So, if this is the route we're going to take, those who respect science might as well kick back and have a beer, too!
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
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  3. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member

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    When we consider that humankind cannot even decide as a whole to feed itself or any number of other important and universally accepted needs, the chances of getting us to do something we cannot even agree should be done are pretty much nil.
     
  4. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is probably the reality of it. The only real scheme to even supposedly slow it down is what? Carbon taxes? No mention of land management, and a worldwide push to add co2 extracting flora. Just taxes, which by the way is another way to redistribute money to the top who have positioned themselves for enrichment as they get even more of the money of the non elites.

    And I just doubt carbon taxes will ever happen here in america. And yet with advancing energy technology, those advancements may go farther in addressing co2 than taxation, over time. As time goes on we will depend less and less on fossil fuels and that is the only solution we will probably ever see.

    But if it makes the doomsday folks feel better, then they can march with signs noting that "the end is nigh" and perhaps like others who have believed this for religious reasons, they will have to push the end off into the future when it doesn't happen as they think it will. I remember the worry when that group in Rome were predicting there would be too many humans, due to population growth, for the earth to sustain and we should have been there by now. All learned men btw, who were worried about population growth. I doubt that this current doomsday worry is any different.

    Go and BBQ and the others can be doomsday preppers.
     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Carbon tax could (and should) be used to offset income tax.

    That's what a number of other nations do TODAY.

    The carbon tax you see at the pump in UK is not some giant slush fund.


    I'm not sure what you mean by land use regulation. In general, there are a lot of Americans not very interested in the government saying more about how they use their land.
     
  6. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I never said it was a slush fund. So, I have read where these carbon taxes will go, but do you know? Tell us. And then I will show you the redistribution of income to the top.

    And the carbon taxes that Gore positioned himself on is not at the pump. Carbon credits? Remember? A system set up to financialize carbon credits. Are you aware of this? And this is what the UN promotes, not a few cent tax at the gas pumps. It is all about co2 emissions at the industrial and energy producing sector.

    Land management would include all public owned lands around the globe. It would also involve the halt of deforestation, especially of rain forests. Have any idea how many acres of old growth rain forest trees are lost each month, each year? What does that do to co2 extraction?

    I read once years ago that the fall of the Mayan empire, which led to the jungles reclaiming farm land used by the mayans had an effect on co2 level, and that was just in the mayan empire, or where it once was. Trees matter in this ecosystem that includes co2.

    There are also a lot of americans who do not want gov't to take anymore of their income in taxes. So, planting trees on your land, or paying more in taxes? I think I know which way most people who own lots of land would go, including myself.
     
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    There is no plan. So, you need to watch for those who tell you where it's going to go and put them on your "don't watch" list.
    There is no carbon credit system backed by the government.

    Again, you need to be careful about what you listen to.
    What's your point? The US doesn't own the South American rain forests.

    Please remember that the latest climate change agreement (Paris) has each country meeting goals they agree to as individuals and has each country proceeding to meet those goals using methods of their own choosing.

    And, rainforest land use practices are not good, but are not the big issue. The US is the largest per capita producer of co2. China produces more co2 than any other country.

    Let's not make excuses or shift blame in unsupportable directions.
    Again, replacing income tax with carbon tax on a dollar for dollar basis changes tax distribution, but it does not need to change government revenue.
     
  8. jmblt2000

    jmblt2000 Well-Known Member

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    I'm a prepper in the fact that I have hunting property within 50 miles of where I live. I have approximately four months of supplies, as well as guns, ammo and a crossbow. My kids all are skilled with firearms, and two are very good with high powered sling shots.

    I'm a denier, I'm more worried about an EMP event that would kill all electronics. But some call me crazy, I say better safe than sorry.
     
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  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    imho, you should put in some level of effort oriented to reducing the likelihood of the disasters that you believe make your investment necessary.
     
  10. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that opinions have solidified along cultural lines. No one's mind is going to be changed by debate. Either they accept scientific consensus or they don't. And while many would argue that they want to see proof, the fact is that they aren't qualified to make a judgment. Most people are in no position to have an opinion at all. So trust the scientific process - the reason we have the world of technology, medicine, aerospace, the PC, mobile phones, the internet... all that makes possible modern life....

    ...or be a pretend expert and live in a false reality, or leave it to god. In that event, thoughts and prayers to your children and/or grandchildren.

    This is the answer - the price at the pump. This and only this is what will force change. Provide alternatives at competitive prices and the markets will respond. That is how the world will change.

    The solution is for scientists, engineers, entrepreneurs, and investors, to continue pushing the edge on alternative fuels and solar power. It is clear that these are the technologies that will win the energy race.

    In particular, alternative fuels derived from algae are now approaching market prices for petroleum products. Forget about electric cars, fuel cells, soybeans, corn, and other approaches that seek to replace the need for petroleum. The only real competitors are algae fuels. They have the yields, the energy density, compatibility with the existing infrastructure, as well as compatibility with existing engine technology needed for a relatively seamless transition. And only these fuels can satisfy the needs for aviation, large equipment and trucks, as well as ships. They are also carbon neutral - they only release CO2 [in equal or lesser amounts] that was absorbed by the plants used to produce it in the first place.

    Compare for example corn ethanol to biodiesel from algae. For ethanol, expect 100 net gallons per acre-year after paying for the energy to grow and process the corn. Algae can produce at least 2500 net gallons of fuel per acre-year. With time, they might do better than that. Ten years ago, algae fuels were in the $20-$30 per gallon range when all costs were factored in. Today, some companies have reported breaking the $5 mark.

    As for solar cells, today we get for about 50 cents what was over $70 back in the late 1970s. And the price is still dropping. Solar cells are following a price curve similar to computer technology. Spray-on solar cells [painted on], thin-film cells that can be mass produced at dramatically reduced costs, as well as multi-layer cells that could capture up to twice the power for the same area, are all in the works or already being done. Multi-layer solar cells were used on the Mars Rovers. That is one reason for their phenomenal success.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-generation_photovoltaic_cell
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
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  11. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nobody is trying to slow it in order to come up with a plan, they have no plans whatsoever.

    There is plenty of time right now to plan on what to do but nobody on the left cares about that.

    They actually think we can prevent it when history shows us that its going to happen regardless of our actions.

    We are coming out of an ice age folks and when that happens the ice melts and the water rises, we have proof of this happening many times throughout the planets existence so why they think this time will be different is just idiotic.

    The lefties simply don't want to see it happen during their lifetime so they want to delay it.

    Their way of thinking is just to let someone else deal with it.
     
  12. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Well-Known Member

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    Prove it.

    Show me the evidence.

    So scientists are all idiots and you're not. Got it.

    That doesn't even make sense. What are you talking about??

    Uh, that is your way of dealing with it. You whine about those trying to do something.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  13. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What part are you denying?

    The part that the planet has experienced ice-ages before or that we are currently in one, or what exactly?

    I can prove anything you want but you need to be clear on what you are not believing.

    There are no scientists denying the earth has ever heated up and cooled off in the past.

    Naturally, with no humans around.

    The earths natural state is usually with minimal ice, we are existing in an anomaly now, not the normal for our planet and you want to keep it that way.

    I'll give you a hint though, it has to do with the tilt of the earth.

    Good luck trying to prevent that.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  14. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member

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    While I completely agree the world needs to (and is) replacing dependency on fossil fuels what is happening here will have little effect on the larger issue. The unfortunate reality, and it IS reality, would be that CO2 in our atmosphere will take decades to be fully felt and even longer to dissipate which has already begun the feedback loop of permafrost melting and methane release....basically we are too late to prevent what will happen. The next century will be a tough one for our kids no matter what anyone does.
     
  15. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Well-Known Member

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    Algae is also the best carbon capture entity known to man. It can actually reverse the damage. In fact, when the mass of oil reserves were considered, it was far too much to be the remains of animals and large plants alone. And it turns out that the lion's share of petroleum was made by algae in the first place. The key is to grow large plumes in the ocean, which collect CO2, die, and sink into the deep waters where there are preserved indefinitely by pressure and the low temps, effectively trapping the CO2 for millions of years...until some humans ten million years from now drill for it as oil.

    There are a number of compounds considered for reducing the incident solar flux. In fact, Alcoa patented one many years ago. It is an aluminum-oxide powder that is so fine that it can be added to jet fuel. The jets then disperse it at high altitudes, where the bright-white particles remain for several years, reflecting sunlight before it hits the earth.

    Work is being done on artificial CO2 sequestration.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  16. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member

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    Algae do play a role and can actually replace fossil fuels (biofuel) if we humans decided to do so. As for sequestered bio matter in the Ocean sediments, we have a much bigger problem happening right now, everywhere in the ocean.
     
  17. iamanonman

    iamanonman Well-Known Member

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    We definitely have the ability to slow the warming rate. The debate is over whether we have the motivation to do so. Sorry if I'm coming off as a cinic here, but I think our children and grandchildren will be looking at the IPCC's 2C of warming target in the rear view mirror someday.
     
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  18. iamanonman

    iamanonman Well-Known Member

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    If we want to keep Earth's climate in it's current state then we should probably stop or reduce activities that are causing it to warm.
     
  19. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member

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    While I agree we humans could technically slow our effect, politically we cannot even agree it is happening and worldwide agreement is impossible. Regardless it would make little difference even if we stopped all CO2 production today as what is already in the atmosphere wont truly be felt for decades and warming has already started something far worse that no one can prevent.
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't claim the refusal is world wide.

    China, Europe and other major contributors are working on this problem.

    The USA is the outlier.
     

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