Abortion is a homicide, deal with it

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Whaler17, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Banned

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    and in the overwhelming majority if cases it is unjustifiable. It will become illegal again soon thankfully.
     
  2. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    homicide is the illegal murder of a person.

    legally, zygotes and embryos are not "persons".

    not even according to the Constitution are they "persons".

    Abortion, especially in the 1st trimester, will never be illegal in the USA.
     
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  3. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Banned

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    Where to start, hmm first of all your definition of homicide is completely wrong. Secondly your assertion that a fetus isn't legally a person is likewise completely wrong.

    Read the UVVA , a federal law protecting "children in utero at any stage of development".

    Abortion will become illegal as it should.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  4. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    persons have rights.

    zygotes, embryos and fetuses have no rights.

    they cant vote, own property, run for office, make any medical decisions, testify in court.

    they are not afforded any due process if accused of a crime.

    even 5 year old children are afforded due process.

    According to the Constitution, personhood begins at birth.
     
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  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    I didn't realize being able to vote was a prerequisite for human rights.


    Babies, toddlers, women in comas can't make medical decisions either.

    I suppose you want to treat elderly people with Alzheimer's the same way you want to treat a fetus.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
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  6. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    according to the Constitution, personhood begins at birth.
     
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  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    Not true, you must be mistaken.

    If you're talking about the Fourteenth Amendment, that only says that people who are born are granted automatic citizenship, not that they necessarily weren't considered to have citizenship before.
     
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  8. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    UVVA adds an unborn fetus as a victim of a crime, if the fetus is killed during the comission of a crime.

    It doesn't bestow upon them personhood status.

    also, if the UVVA bestowed personhood upon the child in utero, it would not include this clause:

    "(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to permit the prosecution—
    (1) of any person for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf, has been obtained or for which such consent is implied by law;
    (2) of any person for any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or her unborn child; or
    (3) of any woman with respect to her unborn child
    ."
     
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  9. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Banned

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    Ok now let's
    go back to the definition of homicide. There are fetal homicide laws in place across the country. Homicide is the killing of a person. So how can a non person be a homicide victim? No weasely " that's
    not what they meant" BS either, it is what they meant clearly and literally.

    logically the reason the exception is in the
    law is because it actually does recognize the personhood of a child in utero at any stage of development. There would be no reason for exception language otherwise.

    No law bestows personhood on anyone, laws only recognize it.


     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ronstar, let me ask you this. Do you believe it's a homicide when someone else kills a fetus, without the woman's permission?
     
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  11. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Constitution specifically recognizes personhood upon BIRTH.
     
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  12. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Banned

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    Regardless of what he believes or doesn't, it is a homicide punishable by law, current law, FEDERAL LAW!

     
  13. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Banned

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    You have failed to prove that assertion.......[because you cannot. it is untrue.
     
  14. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    many states do not have fetal homicide laws.
     
  15. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Banned

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    Many do. and all fall under the Unborn Victims of Violence Act!
    Federal Law - look it up, it is kind of a big deal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  16. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    most murders in the USA do not fall under Federal jurisdiction
     
  17. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Banned

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    However you claim personhood is decided by a Federal Court. Hang your hat on federal law and you lose, it recognizes the personhood of children in utero at any stage of development, literally.
     
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  18. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Banned

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  19. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Federal law is straight and to the point.

    unless it specifically states, humans in utero are recognized as persons, the law does no such thing.
     
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  20. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    most murder victims do not fall under Federal jurisdiction.
     
  21. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Get back to us when the first raped woman is brought to trail for murder for using the day after pill.
     
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  22. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Banned

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    It does, that is the point. Protecting them as children in utero obviously recognizes them as persons. There is no logical argument to the contrary. And it literally specifically says at any stage of development.
     
  23. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    no, it does not.

    Federal law also recognizes corporations and unions as "persons".

    doesn't make them a true person.
     
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  24. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Banned

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    It absolutely does.


    Does it protect corporations against
    violence or homicide????? btw that is a good argument against using personhood as a threshold at all.

    Well?????

     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  25. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the federal law does not protect a fetus against a woman's self-induced abortion.
     

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