Abortion is in the constitution.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Patricio Da Silva, Dec 2, 2021.

  1. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    No, my only mistake was not to put an asterisk in the title, and referenced the asterisked title's precise meaning on the opening page.

    No, you are insulting me for 'lying', when that is a false characterization.

    You want to become a better person? Try giving the benefit of the doubt before you pull that arrow from your quiver and shoot.

    Well, hey, if you gaslight someone often enough, they just might get mad.
     
  2. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Not the phony slave issue again....................

    If you are going to comment on my post do so in the context of what was discussed and how the issue according to the 9th amendment argument being made would simply revert back to the states and the people of those respective states.
     
  3. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    IMMINENT serious bodily harm, when you take the life of another human being in self defense it has to be for an imminent no other way to stop the SERIOUS bodily harm, like losing an eye, or an arm or a leg or some other traumatic SERIOUS injury arising above changes to the body which do not threaten your life. If you come at me and try to slap me I can't shoot and kill you. I can only use the force necessary to stop the harm. Rarely does a pregnancy threaten a woman's life or serious harm that cannot be remedied by proper care. When it can't we of course allow abortion.
     
  4. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of my reply.

    I am NOT arguing or refuting, rebutting, etc., the substance of your argument, though I could, easily as it has a number of weaknesses.

    I am saying to you, that your debate tactics are substandard to such a degree I do not care to engage with you.

    Substandard debate tactics could be applied to a perfectly logical argument, see? Substandard debate tactics has nothing to do with the substance of the argument.

    That is why you cannot assert I'm engaging in an 'argumentum ad hominem'.

    Why? Because if that were true, then I would be attacking you, personally, with the intent, by that tactic to discredit your argument. Of course, that, for the most part, is a logical fallacy.

    But, that is not what I'm doing. I'm saying unless you can employ more seasoned debate tactics, the kind that a good argument should use, which would contain reasoning and facts, sans the many debate sins which you have a propensity to stoop to, I am not willing to engage.

    Now, we all do debate sins here and there, they are hard to avoid, at times, but the operative word is 'egregious', so is it a threshold crossed whereby only a fool would engage? In my view, you crossed that threshold. See, with lines like 'kangaroo clown show', I simply cannot take you seriously.

    It's not that you are wrong or right, I don't care because I can't take you seriously until you can improve the caliber of your argument.

    Below is an inventory of debate sins I've compiled, common to many on debate forums, which I'm adding to all the time, as I observe them, for your edification, should you be interested.


    Incompetent rebuttals are arguments where the salient premise is based on
    non arguments, a non argument isn't really debatable or it's not worthy of debate owing to any of the following types, they come in many different flavors, especially those which contain vacuous declarations and/or allegations (which cannot be substantiated, i.e., 'making stuff up'), rebuttals rife with weasel words (improper use of generalities such as 'some people are saying' 'everyone knows' 'well-established fact'.) ad hominems, loaded terms & phrases,, off topic/irrelevant deflections, sentiments (words that reveal emotional attitude devoid of fact, logic and reason) off point arguments/deflections (off point is a sibling to off topic, where off topic is attempting to highjack the thread. It's done a lot in internet forums, and if the person to whom you directed the topic change accepts it, then you're off into a new direction, but, as such, of course, doesn't refute the original premise offered), egregious strawman arguments, egregious cynicism, off-the-charts ill-logic (of one kind or another), 'kill the messenger" tactics, i.e., attacking the person presenting the argument rather than the argument, itself ( the only time kill the messenger is valid is for a well-established discredited source, such as Alex Jones, David Duke, etc, ), childish remarks, trivialising your opponent's argument -- cheap shot, childish or sophomoric comments/logic arising from ignorance (for example, NYTimes is a 'radical leftist rag' -- that's a remark born out of ignorance, it's also an 'kill the messenger' tactic) and then there is the classic thought-terminating cliché; these are cult-tropes, born out of groups who have a demagogue leader who is the master of implanting them in his flock. See, the demagogue doesn't like dissent, so when anyone challenges someone in his flock, he, being a master mind manipulator, will have planted a number of thought-terminating clichés into the minds of his subjects ( via repetition) so they will toss it up to the opponent in an attempt to kill the conversation (wrongfully thinking it improves their argument ) so TTCs are simple terms catch phrases or words whose sole purpose is, to kill the conversation, such as 'TDS' "NeverTrumper" "Leftist Loony" (noting that the terms are not necessarily devised by the demagogue himself, they could be created by other believers, or have already been around and adopted by and they catch on with the group ) etc., pithy aphorisms assumed to be always true ( aphorisms exist because empirical observations tend to be true, but cannot be used as the salient premise to refute an argument as they are not, nor cannot be, absolute axioms), last, but not least, and a significant debate sin, is posturing; posturing type comments, come in two basic categories, one is where you flaunt, i.e, for example, your education, your age, military service, etc., but of course if the argument can be improved by your qualifications of expertise in a field, that is okay, what I mean is something like 'I served while you were dodging the draft" whereupon your service doesn't improve your argument about whether dodging the draft was moral, or not, or flaunting your education, age or authority of some kind, unless it's pertinent to the argument, noting that relying solely on 'authority' is considered a logical fallacy ( but can be appropriate if pertinent and used to supplement other more corroborative items used to buttress the argument ) and the other type of posturing are those comments which are motivated by puffing oneself up, and this is done by shaming, belittling, mocking, patronizing, 'mansplaining', flaming, where one talks down to ones opponent in order to puff oneself up under the misguided notion that doing so improves one's argument, which, of course, it most certainly does not.

    In fact, these inventory of debate sins are so common, even those who are skilled in debates still make them, (yes, I'm guilty at times, though I strive not to be, being mindful of such things) but the point is always, 'is the debate defect the salient part of the argument, is the premise of the argument based on any of them? That's when you get this boiler plated prewritten response because it doesn't deserve an individualized response (in my humble or not-so-humble opinion).

    But, I realize I'm not god's gift to the debate arena, but this is how I think, this is my experience.

    So, rather than go through all of this, what I should have done, from the outset, was just to put you on ignore. But, my weakness is that I find it hard to ignore people, no matter how bad their arguments are.







     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again just an Ad Hom demonization of the messenger post .. 4 in a row now .. no material addressing the topic .. and then running off the playground calling names as you go .. to stick head in sandbox of denial.

    1) vax mandate .. Lawrence .. has no clue about the constitution .. guilty of sin of omission
    2) Utilitarian Blue Wingnut .. an anathema to the Constitutional republic .. by definition
    3) Russiagate --- Sin after sin .. proping up the political clown show narrative .. like its no tomorrow ..
     
  6. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sorry, I can't take you seriously, for reasons stated.
     
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not my fault.. that message conflicts with necessary illusion bubble - but, why shoot the messenger.. because you can't handle the message? .. only the most loony of Kings did stuff like that.
     
  8. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    After 15 pages of bickering what have we established?

    That abortion is clearly not in the Constitution, time to abort from this superfluous thread...
     
  9. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I never claimed that a tumor was a being, so the burden isn't on me to show that it is.
     
  10. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nevertheless, a human fetus remains both a human and a being (as long as it remains alive).

    Why is it that "pro-choice" people like me are capable of acknowledging the obvious while "pro-choice" people like you won't?

    That's a rhetorical question, of course.
     
  11. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    Non sequitur, that has nothing to do with the protected rights of a woman and her body.

    You can keep posting that all you want it's simply not true.

    You mean the founding principles of this nation. Agreed but that still doesn't change the fact that it is not law, the federal Constitution is law. And even the federal Constitution has many flaws. For one, when it was ratified, it didn't apply to slaves. Slaves were not considered human beings, they were considered property despite the Bill of Rights. The principal author of the Declaration, Thomas Jefferson, was a slave owner.

    And still a non sequitur with respect to a fetus. I will not address what is NOT in the Constitution any further, this is whole cloth nonsense.

    No it isn't. The 9th Amendment protects all unenumerated rights. These are not powers referenced by the 10th Amendment. Learn the difference between rights, powers and privileges.

    The body of a pregnant woman, including the fetus she carries and everything else within her body, is definitely her property and that has nothing to do with slavery.

    I should have clarified that I am not in favor of abortion strictly as a substitute for contraception. I can't account for every reason that a woman may not want to carry a fetus to birth though. Many reasons are quite legitimate. In any case, I certainly would never want the state or any other person or entity to make decisions about my own body. So why would I want that for anyone else? Would you want the state or others to decide issues about your body or are you just being hypocritical?
     
  12. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, that is fair enough, BUT in the spirit of the 14th Amendment and "The Rights of Man" Thomas Paine, a woman is a full citizen and has the right to do with her body as she sees fit. My guess is that no woman really WANTS to have an abortion, but sometimes they find themselves in the position that they MUST have one.
     
  13. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    YUPPERS! And that's why a fetus, IF declared a ""person"", canNOT do anything it wants like use another's body to sustain it's life.




    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:


    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death."""""""""""""""""""



    Was that supposed to have some kind of meaning?

    It wasn't by god, it was by the strength and fearlessness of women we were born..


    You seem to be surprised by this....are you? You never knew pregnancy had an effect on women?????????????????????Wow, jus wow...
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  14. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    ALL American citizens shall have the right to bodily autonomy....we don't want slave states...
     
  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    YES, pregnancy can cause serious bodily harm...and there is only ONE way to stop the harm.

    You do NOT have to fear for your life to use self defense...

    NO one is obligated to be harmed by another.



    ,

    As usual you are wrong but IF one's attacker is INSIDE them it's pretty IMMINENT.

    You just don't seem to want WOMEN to have the right to defend themselves....

    if they lose that right they ARE more easily controlled and abused , aren't they ? ;) ;)
     
  16. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    In the English language there are nouns and adjectives....they are different words because they mean different things.

    .



    A human fetus is always human...it is't A human being as in legal person until BIRTH.

    IF it is a legal person before birth that means it has the same resprtictions WE ALL HAVE.
    WE CANNOT USE ANOTHER'S BODY TO SUSTAIN OUR LIFE.




    Uh, what ? !
     
  17. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And its always a being....

    Which is irrelevant to both Aleksander's post and my response concerning human beings.

    FYI, I did notice that red herring earlier...

    And how is this deflection relevant to what Aleksander and I were talking about?

    It's not, but it does appear to be part and parcel of what you have been tap dancing around, which is the fact that abortion involves killing a human being.

    LOL - What are you prattling about?

    YOU used another's body to sustain your life. So did I. Everyone who is walking this planet used another's body to sustain their life.

    Did I post something in a foreign language that you are unable to read and comprehend?
     
  18. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't talking to "alexander"...you bringing him in is a red herring.

    AND a fetus is NOT A human being...it may be human and it may be a being but it is NOT A human being as in a legal PERSON.




    YES, WITH THEIR CONSENT.





    Try facts, I always understand those when they are presented....now, do YOU understand "with their consent" ??
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  19. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All of this is accurate, but doesn't address my question which was what the fetus is doing. AFAIK the fetus is just there not doing a single thing other than existing and not paying attention to anything.
     
  20. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Is that how you define bodily autonomy? How does slavery affect bodily autonomy??
     
  21. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, the Constitution say not one word or even any hint about such things.
     
  22. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How on earth did you get that in the 9th amendment? The 9th says individual may have rights to things not enumerated in the Constitution. It does not say individuals have unencumbered rights to do anything they want.
     
  23. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    LOL - Yet you felt the need to do so when you brought the lofty words and ideas of the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence into the opening post of this particular debate.

    Are you unaware that Jefferson's self-admittedly unoriginal "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" was a riff on Locke's "Life, Liberty and Property"?

    And being that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so to speak, I'll expand on what you posted from the DOI to reinforce my own point:

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

    Notice how rights are not bestowed on us by government, and that it is the People who institute government amongst themselves to secure their unalienable Rights, not government.

    You do understand the meaning of unalienable, don't you?

    unalienable
    adjective
    un·alien·able | \ ˌən-ˈāl-yə-nə-bəl , -ˈā-lē-ə- \
    Definition of unalienable
    : impossible to take away or give up : INALIENABLE
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    — United States Declaration of Independence


    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unalienable

    All that is foreign to you?

    Or let's say I just ignored and defied the District's unconstitutional handgun ban and exercised my 2A rights without the authorities ever finding out about it, which was the case with many residents of the District, I can assure you (I lived in the area for a good part of my life).

    Nevertheless, it is interesting you brought up Heller because it reinforces the fact that our inherent natural rights are indeed unalienable.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
    RodB likes this.
  24. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But I was talking with Alexander, and your deflection remains irrelevant to the discussion that you interjected yourself and your red herring into.

    Again, an irrelevant red herring that has nothing to do with the fact that a human fetus is a human being.

    What's the matter - you can't face the fact that you support killing human beings?

    Oh, so you concede that you CAN use another's body to sustain yourself.

    Heed your own advice, and it's not my fault that you can't communicate effectively.
     
  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    OMYGOODGAWD!

    The PRESENCE of the ZEF is PREGNANCY...THIS IS WHAT PREGNANCY DOES.
    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death."""""""""""""""""""
    There is NO pregnancy if there is no cause, the ZEF.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021

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