Abortionists killing babes after birth? Infanticide okay?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Iron_Merc, Oct 23, 2019.

  1. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Please show proof that anyone forced women to have abortions. If they were it is illegal. But Democrats do not force anyone to have abortions...."force" is what rapists, the Nazis, and Anti-Choicers use.



    And, once again, Sanger has been dead for many years and does not have control nor influence on Planned Parenthood and no fake quotes prove she does.
     
  2. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Still no answer to "what is the difference between an abortion procedure/outcome due to rape and an abortion procedure/outcome due to consensual sex..."""
     
  3. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Active Member

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    You have spent well over half your life waiting for a savior (Trump) and in the mean time 60 million innocents have died in the "holocaust" without hardly any of you raising a hand. Christ did become quite violent when he saw injustice. Did he change anything really? The money changers were probably back the next day. But that was not the point was it. He acted. I would say stopping abortion, if you think it is murder, warrants justifiable righteous anger if anything does. The pathetic response by the anti-choice people leads me to seriously doubt their commitment to their rhetoric.

    If abortion were banned like in some Latin American countries the incidence of abortion would not go down. What would go up is women dying and infanticide. That is what you want?

    Yet another reason to question your ethics.
     
  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Very strange how when you come across information you don't like - you go into some kind of left wing demonization rant. The science presented to you has nothing to do with some left wing agenda .. you are being ridiculous.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5443340/
     
  5. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Apparently you're under the impression the latter follows from the former. Which it doesn't.

    That aside, if you don't think life qualifies as a God-given right, just what do you think does qualify as such?
    If you don't think that commandment is a consequence of the right to life, then pilgrim, you don't think too good.
    C&V, please.
     
  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How about we play a game - you may remember it from kindergarten "Which one is not like the other" !

    3 Pictures - A Man, and Orangutan, and the mighty single celled zygote ... Which picture does the child pick ;) :spin::spin::spin:
     
  7. kiwimac

    kiwimac Well-Known Member

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    Again with the cribbed quotes? Can you people not quote without ellipses?
     
  8. Ritter

    Ritter Banned

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    I have told you a million times already; the pregnancy resulting from rape is unwanted since the sex was unwanted.

    As I have said many times already, the problem with abortion - as I view it - is not abortion itself, but rather is it what causes it and the motive(s) behind that action. Knowingly engaging in what gets you pregnant when you do not want pregnancy is, quite clearly, irresponsible and we do not want a society of irresponsible citizens, do we?

    I am all for abortion on a juridical level.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
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  9. Ritter

    Ritter Banned

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    The orangutang, obviously.
     
  10. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    And it remains true, the Democrats call ICE detention centers "Concentration Camps" and i see you have nothing to say about it, so save the fauxrage for those who are gullible. You'r selling, but no ones buying.
     
  11. Ritter

    Ritter Banned

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    Abortion is always talked about in two ways: (i) Most commonly in a divise manner where parties divide themselves into the two camps of "Pro Choice" and "Pro Life" and/or (ii) in abstract, pseudo-scientific terms of "life" contra "zygote".

    I consider the previous a major turn off since it makes the matter a Statist one and allows the parties to politicise abortion, pushing the issue into the hands of lawmakers and politicians. It also turns the debate into one gigantic and cacophonic broken record where each and every position is repeated in absurdum.

    The latter is one that makes the matter more complex than it actually is where parties bite off more than they can chew by engaging in a conversation about a topic they have no expertise or training in whatsoever, turning the question about abortion into an abstract and philosophical matter titled "What is life and where does it begin?"

    I like to focus on what is real. I am a simple man and do not fancy when basic question are over-intellectualised in absurdum. As I view it, it is more important to create unity because only then can we find common ground to end this dumb debate once and for all.

    And there actually is one thing on which everyone agrees; It would be better if unwanted pregnancies did not occur. Thus, the goal should be to strive for a society where the rate is as close to 0 as possible. This means that abortion is a socio-cultural matter and not a legal or medical one. It is something that involves sovereign individuals, potential children, relationships, attitudes and norms.

    The solution should thus be to create a society of attitudes and norms so that individual sovereignty can be maximised and where relationships are beneficial for all parties engaged. A society where children are safe.

    Some people may disagree, but to me it all starts with good parenting.

    This is why I am not a fan of abortion - It is a symptom of an ill society where relationships, attitudes and norms are toxic. A society where children are in danger and one where - when abortion is made a political issue - our individual liberties are in danger as well.

    I cannot make my stance any clearer than this.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  12. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I dont want to hear you preach about Christ, your thread about his "last words" was a lie and when I proved you wrong, you ran away from the truth.
     
  13. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    Did I say anything about forcing women to have abortions? It's not about force its about insidious stealthy coercion, a dishonest media, subterfuge and abortion quotas (and a heart of stone). And huge abortion clinics strategically placed in heavily populated areas. Abortion is a profitable enterprise for Planned Parenthood. Combine the abortion sales with the auctioning of baby body parts and you have the evil recipe of success. And of course, if Planned Parenthood were shut down by Trump, well over 75% of their impoverished clientele would go down with them. Why? PP provides an essential service to the community that no hospital or health care provider can match. False! Planned Parenthood isnt an ally to the inner city and impoverished, Planned Parenthood is an enemy to the impoverished and under privileged. Killing your kid and taking your money is not healthcare and its not help. PP is in the business of lying, cheating and stealing in order to further their agenda and make forward progress with their abortion - genocide ladder.

    [​IMG]

    Which quote is fake? Because this one certainly is not:
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My goodness Ritter - you failed a kindergarten test :banana::banana::banana:
     
  15. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    The rape victim did not consent to sexual intercourse.

    Okay Okay I will humor you... its the zygote --- supposing thats the answer you are looking for...

    I think an even better game to play would be fill in the blank.
    *keep this in the context of our recent discussion*

    The slave, the jew and the Zygote consist of ________ DNA
    The _______ has more rights than an unborn human child.
     
  16. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Given that only about 20 to 30% of rapes are reported, do tell us how you are going to force a woman to declare she was raped when she doesn't want to ... remember what has happened to women in a number of high profile cases ... from death threats, to public shaming, to further physical assault. Women claiming rape have been paraded around the press in the worst possible light. So again, tell me how you are gong to force a woman to make rape charges just so she can get rid of the rapist's fetus?

    Tell you what. You''re so keen on it, let's make you in charge of forcing women to expose themselves for your pleasure. You can be the one who forces them to take a rape test. You can be the one who forces them to testify in court. It's all on you. You can't pass it off to someone else. YOU have to actually accept responsibility for what you want to force women to do.
    When a woman kills herself because of what she gets put through, you have to accept responsibility. YOU.
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Jew has more rights than the slave - and the slave more rights than the Zygote.

    The reason the child chooses the zygote is because it is not even close to being as similar to a human as an ape is.

    An ape has eyes - fingers and toes .. walks upright .. makes noises ..

    As we get older we learn more about the Ape - learn that it has a brain, feels pain, has memories, dreams, is quite intelligent, can learn words.

    An Ape has a whole lot of characteristics we associate with "Humanity" - such that even a 5 yr can recognize it.

    This in fact is how taxonomy is done - where an organism gets slotted is based on Characteristics. Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species.

    According to the domain science - Human Taxonomy - a subdomain of Biology - in order to be a Homo sapiens - the organism must have membership in all of the above clubs - The ape gets close - the zygote has membership in only one of the clubs - Eukaryota - a single Eukaryotic cell it is.

    So next time someone tells you "Science Says" - you might respond - "how could the zygote be a human - when it is not Homo sapiens ? "
    I would then say well - The Human Taxonomy definition is just one definition - the organism must breath air and a 8 month fetus does not breath air - yet - I would still classify an 8 month old fetus as a living human.

    The thing is though - the above will constitute at least part of any coherent definition. .

    Definitions in Philosophy (another subject matter domain - especially if we are talking "personhood" - is majorly focused on cognition.

    One Scientific/Philosophical perspective is "significant brain function" - we also see this in Medicine as well. Even if someone is both alive and human - if significant brain function ceases to exist - the doctor pulls the plug and the dirt nap begins - that living human no longer has rights - including the right to life.

    The point here is not that any of the above has to be accepted as the only definition .. feel free to come up with your own definition. - What is it that we value about humanity ? - make a list - memories- joy - friends, family. What ever is on that list - the vast majority will require cognition.

    The zygote has no brain - it has no cognition. It has no feelings - no thoughts - no ability to feel pain. It is far more similar to the skin cell you deposited on your keyboard than it is to a human or an ape - regardless of the definition one uses (coherent definition's of course)

    Claiming it is a human based on DNA - is silly. We can claim that is from a human - so it can be called human cell pr a Homo sapiens cell - but it is not a human on this basis - it is not a person - it is not a child - it is not an unborn child.

    Folks just like to project what that single cell might create in the future into the present.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  18. kiwimac

    kiwimac Well-Known Member

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    Quoted as it is, it is most certainly fake. I supplied you with the whole quote. Use it!
     
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  19. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    Its a complex issue and I don't have a simple answer for you. I would say our society needs to have more compassion for rape victims because it shatters their world in so many different ways. Unfortunately the issue of rape has become a monster of it's own in American culture and in the American justice system. Throw a potential abortion in the mix and you have a lit match next to 1000 tons of TNT.

    The only good news going for us is that j
    ust 1% of women obtain an abortion because they became pregnant through rape, and less than 0.5% do so because of incest, according to the Guttmacher Institute. And I want to be clear, I am not trying to minimize their plight, just rehearsing statistics. If a women is raped and that state has an exemption, she needs to follow the protocol even if the situation is challenging. I think a very important part to healing after something like that is counseling. The state should make counseling an elective option for rape victims who abort their children. I know you guys are going to harp on me for this but another good place for the mother to go is a church. Doesn't have to be Christian! Many churches of many various sects have deep ties in your local community and this is a place where family and community often come together. I would say use the church as a resource. Many lasting connections between people and community are forged in the church setting.
     
  20. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    I find it very hard to believe the quote was taken out of context, especially if you read above and below....

    And I think the following quote really speaks to the heart of the abortion debate

    "I think the greatest sin in the world is bringing children into the world"

    Context:
    She believed wholly in the immorality of large families. Chapter 5 of the book is titled "THE WICKEDNESS OF CREATING LARGE FAMILIES". (starting on page 57). She recommended an American Baby Code, she wrote openly of sterilizations, her magazine Birth Control Review is loaded with Malthusian over population nonsense, and she even put forth her idea for the need of a Population Congress which would deal with all of these undesirables and so forth. She was clearly against large families.
     
  21. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    When significance or viability of the unborn child becomes subjective, any moral inclination goes right down the tubes with it. This is why I would institute protections for the unborn - because God entitles his creation to posses certain rights that cannot be taken away - from you or me or anyone else for that matter. Supposing the DOI only applies to born people, what is it really saying? This is an issue of entitlement. If you are alive you have an inalienable right to life. If you are unborn, yet alive, you don't have the right to life. I am of the school of thought that life MUST be protected and preserved from start to finish, no matter how small, no matter how old. Born or unborn, all are treated equal. Of course, personhood is "ongoing" so I am assigning a positive value to the zygote beyond its elemental and basic qualities. If people try to usurp this authority and play God on their own, bad things can happen. We neednt look very far to come up with examples. Which is the point at which the caps lock and the size 7 font with the red and blue lettering comes out. So I wont bring up the examples, but you have to admit there are some striking parallels.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Life must be protected" is a near meaningless statement in the context of the conversation. At least you could say "human life" to try to achieve some measure of technical correctness - but, notice that as soon as you do this .. your argument starts to fall apart.

    "All human life must be protected" - Why should we protect all human life ?

    I do believe in a soul of sorts. I do not think it is possible for the will to exist without one.

    Matter -Energy (ME) - and these two transition one into the other at the sub atomic level. This is what you are made of.

    Prior to your existence - there was a finite probability that you would exist. - that ME would come together in the configuration that was you.

    How do we know this ? - you exist. This is the only thing we truly know for certain. " I think therefor I am".

    Assumption : Time is infinite. In an infinite amount of time - all finite probabilities happen - and they happen an infinite number of times.

    Existence is then infinite.

    Here is the problem though ..

    Step 1) One day ME gets together in the right configuration - and becomes aware of itself. That such a think could happen to begin with is bizarre -but - we know it happened because we are here.

    Step 2) The will - somehow manifested itself into physical reality. Look down at your left hand .. wiggle your fingers. Now tell me how that happened. You formed a thought - and bingo - it happened. How though - in the beginning - did that thought manifest itself into physical reality? - this is a problem.

    You will your legs "run" - and they run ! - What is the brain wave patter for "run" and how did you learn to create this brain wave pattern ?
    Its messed up - of course nor you and I have any clue how we learned how to create this brain wave pattern - and how that pattern managed to send an electric charge through your body - to the specific muscles that are required to run.

    The more one thinks about this problem - the stranger it gets. ..

    Now you have the ability to will things to happen within your own body - if you could manifest your will outside your body - say to make objects move - that would be achieving some God like powers.

    When we drill down to the subatomic level - we find we are mostly empty space. Same when we look out into the universe.

    If one form of ME is able to gain knowledge of its existence - US - is it possible that this can happen on a larger scale - that the universe itself knows it exists. Interestingly - this entity would not need to be able to manifest its will outside its own body - because the universe is its body. This is one way that I like to think about God.
     
  23. Ritter

    Ritter Banned

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    How is an orangutang like a human and a human fetus?
     
  24. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    Still no answer to "what is the difference between an abortion procedure/outcome due to rape and an abortion procedure/outcome due to consensual sex..."""




    No, you have never posted that. ...and it has nothing to do with """what is the difference between an abortion procedure/outcome due to rape and an abortion procedure/outcome due to consensual sex..."""







    :)

    well , congratulations on being the Very First Anti-Choicers to admit it IS all about punishing women for having consensual sex...


    ………..and NOT about that "precious life", the fetus ……
     
  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    I didn't dodge. I made a true statement:

    The most despicable act is to compare the horror, injustice, torture and death that Jews and slaves endured to the quick painless death of a fetus THUS DENIGRATING (OR DENYING !!!!!) WHAT JEWS and SLAVES ENDURED....A DEPLORABLE DESPICABLE THING TO DO..

    The total lack of respect for what slaves (mostly blacks) and Jews endured, to say it was nothing, is the sickest thing on the earth.....and says everything there is to know about those who do that...

    Fetuses are not and were not tortured, raped, murdered, ..they did not slave in a hot southern sun from dawn to dark with no compensation, they were not sold, they had NO grotesque experiments performed on them, they did not have all their property stolen from them, they were not starved, they were not beaten, they were not herded like animals into pens, they did NOT have their rights taken away, they were NOT declared non-humans , they did not FEEL the unbelievable pain that Jews and slaves endured.


    Slaves and Jews WERE forced to gestate, EXACTLY WHAT ANTI-CHOICERS WISH TO DO TO WOMEN.
     

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