About the Holocaust

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by stan1990, Mar 11, 2019.

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Do you agree with the thoughts expressed in this thread?

Poll closed Apr 10, 2019.
  1. Yes

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  2. No

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  3. Maybe

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  1. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    What's wrong with the Talmud? Talmud is a religious scripture such as Bible and Quran. All three contain many crazy things about what we atheists shake our heads. But for the believers, it makes pretty sense. They have a completely different understanding of that stuff as we have.
    Misunderstandings are always a big problem.

    Mass extermination was the final option. The Nazis first collected their Jews into Ghettos because they planned to send them overseas (to Madagascar, Palestine, whatever). But then all these plans failed. They decided, out of necessity, to kill all Jewish prisoners. Thus, Auschwitz and the extermination camps of "Action Reinhardt" came into consideration.
     
  2. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    What I seem to be hearing here is because there are other atrocities we should diminish the horrors of the Holocaust
     
  3. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    I interpret the premise of the OP to be that there is a disproportionate amount of media and school fixation on the holocaust when there have been so many equal or greater mass tragedies about which people know nothing.
    I can think of no one who has not heard the name Hitler & most are familiar with some version of the standard holocaust narrative but very few have even heard the name Genrikh Yagoda(1) who is directly responsible for the deaths of 10 million or have any idea how miserably they died.
    Those who maintain that the holocaust was, somehow, more profound because some of its victims were Jewish exhibit a disturbing form of racism.
    We are as equal in death as we are equal in life.


    (1) "Stalin's Jews"
    "We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish"

    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
    EXCERPT "And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people." CONTINUED
     
  4. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    The Talmud has some very ugly & specific precepts that permits Jews to cheat, kill or otherwise defraud non Jews that could have been used to inflame anti Jewish sentiment.

    Re:
    I am unaware of any specific order from Hitler(1) or widely understood policy that called for the destruction of all Jews under German control(2),(3).

    Since 150,000 Jews served in Germany's military, there were obviously exceptions just as there were high ranking Jews who were Nazis(4) and who knows how many other exceptions were made for members of Germany's old, well connected Jewish families who had lived harmoniously with their fellow Germans for generations.
    Please remember that at its highest point only 10% of all Germans were members of the Nazi Party

    What diminishes the standard holocaust narrative more than anything is the enormous number of frauds seeking easy money, fame, and / or attention:

    "Seventeen Charged With Holocaust Fraud"
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/seventeen-charged-with-holocaust-fraud






    (1) “To the present day a written order by Hitler regarding the destruction of the European Jewish community has not been found, and, in all probability, this order was never given.”

    - Walter Laqueur, Was niemand wissen wollte: Die Unterdruckung der Nachrichten uber Hitlers Endlösung (What Nobody Wanted to Know: The Suppression of News About Hitler’s “Final Solution”), (Berlin-Vienna, 1981), p.190


    (2) "The Wannsee Conference: Another Lie Crushed"
    http://barnesreview.org/the-wannsee-conference-another-lie-crushed/

    EXCERPT "The actual minutes of the Wannsee Conference can be read in their entirety—in the original German here,

    In reality, the Wannsee meeting and its minutes do not contain a master plan to kill Jews;

    – Nowhere in the meeting’s minutes is genocide discussed, planned, proposed, or even suggested;

    – The Wannsee meeting never discussed gas chambers, shootings, or any of the fantasies propagated by the exterminationists"CONTINUED


    (3) “THE HOLOCAUST NARRATIVE” by Nicholas Kollerstrom
    https://archive.org/stream/BreakingTheSpell_48/BreakingTheSpell-Kollerstrom_djvu.txt

    EXCERPT “In 1941, British Intelligence analysts cracked the German “Enigma” code. This undermined the German war effort—but also threw new light on day-by-day events in the Nazi concentration camp system. Between January 1942 and January 1943, encrypted radio communications between those camps and the Berlin headquarters were intercepted and decrypted.

    Oddly enough, historians have largely ignored the information furnished in these intercepts relating to “arrivals,” “departures,” recorded deaths and other events at these camps.The only reasonable explanation is that the intercepted data contra-dicts, even refutes, the orthodox “Holocaust” narrative.

    The information does not expose a program of mass murder and racial genocide. Quite the opposite: it reveals that the Germans were determined, desperate even, to reduce the death rate in their work camps, which was caused by catastrophic typhus epidemics.”CONTINUED


    (4) "List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazis_of_non-Germanic_descent
    EXCERPT "Notably, there were several high-ranking Nazis of Jewish descent."CONTINUED
     
  5. Kenneth Erwin Engelhardt

    Kenneth Erwin Engelhardt Newly Registered

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    He didn't kill because he was Jewish. He killed because he was part of a vast political machine that killed off political rivals.
     
  6. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    If you mean Genrikh Yagoda, I never suggested that he killed because he was Jewish nor have I ever suggested that Jews were more homicidal than anyone else.
    My contention is that our schools & MSM overemphasize the holocaust at the expense of the many other equal or greater mass killings that have occurred since 1900.

    Rarely does a day pass when we are not exposed to yet another holocaust story to the point of "holocaust fatigue" while the victims of other mass killers go forgotten & unmourned.

    I am only suggesting a less myopic view of history's heroes, villains & survivors.
     
  7. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    This is why you think the Holocaust is fabricated, right?

    Hitler spoke at the Reichstag (January 30, 1933) about the "destruction of the Jewish race in Europe". He already pointed to the Holocaust.

    I think he tried to avoid that, but he did not manage to peacefully cleanse Germany off the Jews. So he decided on genocide.
     
  8. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    No, I don't think that the holocaust is fabricated.
    I think that the numbers have been inflated and many stories have been exaggerated by innumerable frauds to the point that it's hard to know what is true or false.(1)
    I'm old enough to remember when "human soap" and "human skin lampshades" were considered absolute proof of Nazi cruelty.

    I've also spoken with numerous holocaust survivors very much like Alexander McClelland(2) who contradict what has become the standard holocaust narrative. An elderly Russian neighbor was a prisoner of the Americans, Russians, British, Germans & other armies & claimed to be treated best by the Germans.

    I'm sure that life in the camps was miserable and many were unjustly executed but were they any worse than Soviet gulags, Salomon Morel's torture camps or Genrikh Yagoda's starvation pogroms.

    How is it less heinous to deliberately execute innocent civilians by fire bombing from the air (3) than by firing squad on the ground?

    That, as I understand it, is the premise of this thread. Why is it a crime in almost 20 countries to dispute the details of one mass killing but perfectly acceptable to dispute mass killings that were equal or even worse than the holocaust?


    (1)"Seventeen Charged With Holocaust Fraud"
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/seventeen-charged-with-holocaust-fraud


    (2) ALEXANDER McCLELLAND.........LETTER
    http://www.whale.to/b/con1.html


    (3) “I do not want suggestions as to how we can disable the economy and the machinery of war, what I want are suggestions as to how we can roast the German refugees on their escape from Breslau.”
    Prime Minister Winston Churchill
    "Winston Churchill: the Imperial Monster"
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/28/winston-churchill-the-imperial-monster/
     
  9. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    Today, the number of victims of the Holocaust is well researched. The transport lists of the Reichsbahn to the extermination camps are almost completely preserved. Approximately three million people were deported to Nazi death camps where they disappeared.

    Another 4 to 5 million were shot by Nazi mobile killing squads in occupied eastern Europe.
     
  10. stan1990

    stan1990 Active Member

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    Go visit a doctor, something wrong in your hearing
     
  11. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    First of all, I want to thank you for your ability to discuss this volatile issue with our rancor or insults. Most people who have been led to believe the standard holocaust narrative are unable to discuss this particular mass killing rationally & with civility which is why I usually avoid discussing it at all.

    You may be right that transport lists have been almost completely preserved but all they show is that people have been transported, not executed.
    Because people were transported & "disappeared" doesn't mean that they were executed. No one seems to know how many mixed with the local population, returned to their previous hometowns or migrated to Palestine or other countries.

    If millions had been executed there would have been hundreds of millions of bones & teeth nearby since cremation requires vast amounts of coal/coke & only burns flesh.(1)
    Additionally, human bodies are mostly water and cannot be burned in pits as is sometimes reported.
    Allied aerial reconnaissance does not show large amounts of coal/coke required for cremation nor does it show frequent use of the crematoria (i.e. lots of smoke) so where are the mass graves?

    Briefly put, there are numerous mass graves consistent with the numbers killed in other mass killings but only with the holocaust do we have far fewer mass graves than the claimed number of casualties.

    Please note:
    "THE HOLOCAUST ARCHAEOLOGY HOAX"
    http://www.nafcash.com/

    EXCERPT "It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II - hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of corpses were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive allegations to the contrary, the truth is; the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the - one hundred - graves / cremation pits that are alleged to have been scientifically proven to currently exist at these sites, in which verified human remains have been tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology; contained the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE.

    Those who believe they can refute any statement of fact articulated on this web page are invited to accept

    THE HOLOCAUST ARCHAEOLOGY HOAX CHALLENGE

    $100,000.00 REWARD

    For proving - just 1 / 1,000 of 1% - of the criminally fraudulent buried remains allegations" CONTINUED


    (1) "9 Things About Cremation"
    https://www.elementalnw.com/2014/05/26/9-things-cremation/

    EXCERPT "2. You don’t get ash back. What’s really returned to you is the person’s skeleton. Once you burn off all the water, soft tissue, organs, skin, hair, cremation container/casket, etc., what you’re left with is bone. When complete, the bones are allowed to cool to a temperature that they can be handled and are placed into a processing machine. It looks like a mean margarita blender, and they are processed down to the consistency of ash, where they get their misnomer name."CONTINUED
     
  12. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    do you really think anyone actually reads that crap you copy/paste off troofer sites.
     
    MGB ROADSTER likes this.
  13. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    In other words, you can't refute a thing I've either written or cited as a source.
     
  14. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    How about God's murder of the entire planet except those in the Ark?
     
  15. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    I think that man has done a pretty good job of slaughtering his fellow man without bring up acts of God.

    Did you have a particular man made slaughter in mind?
     
  16. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    Well there was a big tadoo about and old carcass that started the Cave Dwellers War...
     
  17. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    Actually it means exactly what I said, but feel free to think whatever you like.
    I can't refute what I don't read.
    and I don't read copy/paste from troofer sites,
    Especially when you use big type and cover an entire page.
     
  18. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    I cited excerpts from two sources.
    One explains why there are only bones & teeth even after lengthy cremations.
    The other is simply a challenge to anyone or any organization to find the remains of "millions of people" alleged executed at Treblinka, Belzec, Chelmno etc.

    If "millions" were executed in the Eastern camps, why are there no human remains or mass graves like the ones left behind by Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Genrikh Yagoda etc.
    It's a perfectly valid question that is among the many facts that debunk the standard holocaust narrative:

    "No Bodies Found at Treblinka"
    http://theamericanchronicle.blogspot.com/2014/01/no-bodies-found-at-treblinka.html
    EXCERPT "Engineer Richard Krege's "excavation" of the Treblinka concentration camp found no bodies, severely undercutting the claim that it was the site of 875,000 mass murders."CONTINUED
     
  19. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    I'm happy for you.
     
  20. gnoib

    gnoib Active Member

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    I think you miss the very important part. What happened in Germany was industrialized mass murder, not just on Jews.
    The perversity of humanity showed itself, that humans created a industry to mass murder, make it efficient as possible and recycle the remains.
    Humans and their belongings reduced to a resource.
    It is not just Jew, they have monopolized the Holocaust, but many other people and groups.

    It is the method, the organization and idea, which separates the Holocaust, from every other mass killing.

    It shows how low we can sink, if our social restriction are lifted.
    Nothing compares to it, no other mass murder, even the bigger ones and there are in history many, compares to this industrialized mass murder.
     
  21. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    There's no reason to believe otherwise. The Nazis wanted to get rid of Jews and they openly did mass executions in the Holocaust by Bullets. -->
     
  22. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    Hello gnoib,
    I noticed that you just recently joined this forum, would like to welcome you & appreciate the civility of your comment concerning this volatile & emotionally charged topic.

    I'm almost 70 years old & I've known several holocaust survivors both here in the US and while I lived, worked & studied in Germany. None of them mentioned industrialized mass murder as a dismal feature of the German WW 2 work camps. They did mention random executions & torture at the hands of camp Kapos but not the ongoing & constant, "assembly line" mass executions.

    There have been fraudulent claims of electrified conveyor belts, deadly "steam chambers" etc at Nuremberg but those later proved to be false.
    However, for a universal, industrialized program of mass executions there would have be a high level order from Hitler, himself but one has not been found in the 500 tons of documents captured(1)

    Additionally, the British cracked the German Enigma code early in the war & no mention was ever made of industrialized executions(2) in the German radio transmissions.

    It is widely known that there were advanced medical and dental clinics in all of the camps and it doesn't make sense to give medical & dental care to people who you are going to execute.

    From what I've read, seen & heard, more people died in the camps from typhus than from executions and at the same time no homicidal gas chambers or extensive mass graves have been found that are commensurate with the claim that 6 million were systematically executed as even after cremation, there are hundreds of millions of bones & teeth left over.....where are they?

    It is at least my opinion that the holocaust was no more heinous than the numerous other mass killings of which we know too little because Hollywood and Western MSM are obsessed with the holocaust & primarily its Jewish victims/survivors.

    I agree with the premise of the OP which is that too little is known about the innumerable victims of Genrikh Yagoda (3), Salomon Morel, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao etc whose victims are just as deserving of our attention as those who died in the holocaust.

    It would seem that if we are all equal in life, we should be equal in death.

    Thanks,





    (1) “To the present day a written order by Hitler regarding the destruction of the European Jewish community has not been found, and, in all probability, this order was never given.”

    - Walter Laqueur, Was niemand wissen wollte: Die Unterdruckung der Nachrichten uber Hitlers Endlösung (What Nobody Wanted to Know: The Suppression of News About Hitler’s “Final Solution”), (Berlin-Vienna, 1981), p.190


    (2) “THE HOLOCAUST NARRATIVE” by Nicholas Kollerstrom
    https://archive.org/stream/BreakingTheSpell_48/BreakingTheSpell-Kollerstrom_djvu.txt

    EXCERPT “In 1941, British Intelligence analysts cracked the German “Enigma” code. This undermined the German war effort—but also threw new light on day-by-day events in the Nazi concentration camp system. Between January 1942 and January 1943, encrypted radio communications between those camps and the Berlin headquarters were intercepted and decrypted.

    Oddly enough, historians have largely ignored the information furnished in these intercepts relating to “arrivals,” “departures,” recorded deaths and other events at these camps.The only reasonable explanation is that the intercepted data contra-dicts, even refutes, the orthodox “Holocaust” narrative.

    The information does not expose a program of mass murder and racial genocide. Quite the opposite: it reveals that the Germans were determined, desperate even, to reduce the death rate in their work camps, which was caused by catastrophic typhus epidemics.”CONTINUED


    (3) "Stalin's Jews"
    "We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish"

    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

    EXCERPT "And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people."CONTINUED
     
  23. gnoib

    gnoib Active Member

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    I am just a few years behind you, concerning youth.

    I do not question that others have mass murdered, too. If it comes to numbers than Stalin and Mao are leading the pack.
    The Holocaust stands out, because of its industrialized organization. We Germans are good when it comes to organization. It allowed that in a very short time the killing of millions of people, including recycling, was possible.

    I am in no position to question the numbers and will not do so, neither the methods.
    I consider that a very slippery slope
     
  24. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    I was hoping that you would address my entire Post rather than simply posting another emotionally charged "documentary" that starts off with nonsense about throwing babies into fires; presumably a fire pit in which human bodies cannot burn because they are about 75% water.
    The video differs little from countless ones I've seen in which publicity hungry villagers direct the interviewer to mass graves that could be from Soviet executions, Ukrainian executions, German executions or even remains from Napoleon's army.
     
  25. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    If I understand you correctly, you probably grew up in West or East Germany in the 1950s while the Allied occupiers were enforcing their "denazification" programs & trying to blame the Germans for any and all war crimes in spite of the many Allied atrocities.

    I know that the Germans are well organized because I lived, studied & worked in Germany for about 3 years in the mid 1970s.
    I also am aware that it is forbidden to openly discuss the numbers & methods what has come to be known as "the holocaust".

    Unfortunately, I cannot show how the holocaust was any more or less industrialized than any other mass killing without discussing those forbidden aspects and don't want to lead you down that very slippery slope.
    Briefly put, I feel that the German people have been unfairly blamed for far more of the killing, cruelty & war crimes than they were guilty of committing by the victorious Allies who write the history.

    While the fraudulent Jews Claims Conference and related organizations (i.e "The Holocaust Industry") has succeeded in making Jews the focus the holocaust era, I feel that the suffering during the holocaust is no more profound than other mass killings just because Jews were among those who suffered.

    In other words, the deaths of the innocent German civilians who suffered torture & execution under Salomon Morel simply because they were German are no less tragic than innocent Jews who suffered under cruel Nazi henchmen.

    Contrary to the redundant admonitions of the "Holocaust Industry", no single race, religion or ethnic group has a monopoly on either good or evil.



    "HOLOCAUST CLAIMS CONFERENCE FRAUD LIKELY ‘MUCH HIGHER’ THAN $57 MILLION"
    http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Holoc...aud-likely-much-higher-than-57-million-408298

    EXCERPT "Writing to the Claims Conference’s board last week, recently terminated ombudsman Shmuel Hollander asserted that, while reports had said organizational insiders had siphoned off $57 million in German taxpayer funds meant for survivors, “the final sum is in all probability much higher.”CONTINUED
     

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