Aggravated Murder, charged and confessed to. An unborn is afforded human dignity

Then you believe Ms. Amanda will be giving up the monster's child (her child?) for the same reason?

 

Try putting yourself in those young women's situation. After being kidnapped, severely beaten, chained and locked up, and raped for years, would you want to be forced to gestate and give birth to that monster's child? Be honest. It is immaterial that you could possibly bond to the child, and some women don't. If it happened to the 14-year-old victim, the miscarriage could have actually saved her life because teen pregnancies are especially dangerous, and in combination with having no skilled birth attendant, her chances for dying would be greatly increased.

 

Cady you are most articulate and make a nice argument...and I, admittedly so, may partake or be guilty of hyperbole on "rare " occasion.

Our difference, from my perspective, is about recognizing the human being and the stages of development we go through during our life.

You, Fugazi and everyone else here went through the same stages of development from the very beginning and continue to develop/change to this moment. The very beginning is as important, if not more so, as any other stage and it is essential to our existence even to this moment. The point being that a human being's conceptual stage and all that comes after is what constitutes the human experience and being

I see the inherent humanity of all us from the beginning. I do not exclusively see cells or tissue, organs or systems but rather a human being deserving of dignity on the developmental pathway from conception until natural death.

When we try to qualify the humanity of another with a test I believe we are at risk of losing our own. I have read one (egghead academician whose name escapes me) argue that newborns could be killed, at an arbitrary point, without that being considered murder. The qualifier, exact test or tests escape my recall, whether it was what contribution could the child make or just how aware of his or her environment the baby is/was doesn't matter. Our humanity is more than this.

I do not believe we start out as an "it" or a "what" and at some later point in time miraculously convert to a "who", a human being. I think "who is" is our difference

 

No doubt that these women horrifically suffered and will need support and understanding. Some might wonder if the child was a salvation for her in those tortured circumstance. But I honestly do not know.

So giving the child up for adoption it is?

 

Why are the stages important as opposed to what "the entity" IS as any given stage. For instance, a famous painting, was not really worth that much whne the canvas was being stretched over its frame.

That is true we do share that commonality, but we must also recognize that "looking back" is a poor way of determining significance. Significance can only be assigned for current value as no one is certain how the future will unfold. Gold is worth what is worth today, futures a pure speculation. A person can grow up as a darling child, bright student with great expectations and the turn out to be a mass murderer. Clearly the significance does vary in unpredictable ways.

And there is nothing wrong with your perspective, quite noble in fact, but you must also recognize that not all share that view and it would not be just to have their views suppressed by the force of law in order to have your views become the standard.

And history has proven that to be a true and very sad fact. But if we look just a bit beyond the superficial similarities, we can observe that when the qualification you are mentioning were used, those who were deemed to be less were in fact equal. The same can not be said about a zygote.

Extreme positions have always been held by people on any side of any issue and should never be the determining factors. However, there are proven methods that do reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and thus abortions, prohibition not being one of those.

 

Continuity. We are as we have been and will hopefully continue to be...Human.

History is a roadmap showing us from whence we came. Our beginning sets the stage and much of our life story.

Thank you, recognized of course, First Amendment and Declaration of Independence right to life supporter for decades.

You and I may not be equal (in talents, socially, financially, industry, etc.) other than we were created with the chance to make of ourselves something beyond our initial lot in life.

Yes I understand that abortion=birth control=attempt to avoid responsibility. Abortion (taking a human life without benefit of charge and trial) defines extremism. A mother (sometimes supported by the father) decides to end her developing child's life...extreme, wouldn't you say? Extreme can be a common experience many millions of times over.

 

I fail to see what continuity, or rather how continuity is relevant. After all, continuity can only asses looking back since the future is not predictable. Moreover, the present is the only thing that we can deal in certainly.

No dispute there, but we still remain unequal in significance in the grand scheme of things. Women and children first, preservation of government, and so on are just some examples of how we as a society do attach significance to ourselves.

It does but does not determine where we are going nor where we are or what is significant.

Indeed, but again, is that reason enough to infringe on freedom?

Is is fully meany and respected.

Yes that is true, however reality also remains that when push comes to shove, I certainly would not hesitate to throw you under the bus in order to further the interests of my family or myself. Of course I mean no harm or wish ill, it being just a figure of speech I am sure you get.

I am afraid you reached the wrong conclusion.

As opposed to combat, collateral damage, it would save more lives later, letting to die, denying health care, unavailability of clean drinking water, pollution, the list can go on endlessly?

If we are talking about routine elective abortions, and that is what we should be talking about, then it is none of my business, so I simply have no opinion on it.

 

The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) released a statement about fetal pain given the misleading testimony during the debate over HR 1797, the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Act. This legislation was recently passed by the House of Representatives and if it becomes law will ban all abortions after 20 weeks. There is a life of the mother clause and rape/incest exemption, but only if the rape/incest is reported to the police before the procedure.

We’ll have to discuss the atrocity of requiring a police report to “legitimize” rape/incest on another day. Today I want to focus on the erroneous and thoroughly unscientific belief that a 20 week fetus feels pain.

This is the statement from ACOG on the scientific facts concerning fetal pain:

A rigorous 2005 scientific review of evidence published in the Journal of the American Medical
Association (JAMA) concluded that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.
Although ultrasound monitoring can show intrauterine fetal movement, no studies since 2005
demonstrate fetal recognition of pain.

Sound health policy is best based on scientific fact and evidence-based medicine. The best health care
is provided free of governmental interference in the patient-physician relationship. Personal decision-making by women and their doctors should not be replaced by political ideology.

The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), representing more than 58,000
ob-gyns and partners in women’s health, supports robust, factual debate on issues of importance to the
American people. We urge you to call on us to provide expert factual explanation of issues related to
women’s health.

It is important to note that many other medical societies also oppose HR 1797, including:

American College of Nurse-Midwives
American Medical Women’s Association
American Nurses Association
American Public Health Association
Association of Reproductive Health Professionals
American Society for Reproductive Medicine
National Association of Nurse Practitioners in Women’s Health
National Family Planning & Reproductive Health Association
Physicians for Reproductive Health

The above is a determination by the AMA...AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION.

A Fetus CANNOT FEEL PAIN prior to the 3rd trimester.

AboveAlpha

 

Interesting that more and more people are realizing the inhumanity at the heartless soul of abortion, more interestingly still is that a majority of women, raising the ire of liberals, see it.

 

I think it's more likely they don't understand why women choose abortion after 20 weeks, which is always for medical reasons, and that they have been lied to about fetal pain.

 

Pro-choicers know that the fetus is a person. They just are against banning abortions because of (how they view it) as supposedly "harming women". This shows that they subconsciously agree with pro-lifers that fetuses are persons, but they want to make policies which would support their own agenda.

 

A fetus is not a person and has never been considered a person. Here is a Webster's 1828 definition of person...

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/person

 

Always, only, never etc., are words that are rarely used with a 100% degree of accuracy or even mostly true (remember if one part is false the whole statement is false).

Really Cady, you should give the girls, ladies, women in the 60 percentile some credit of knowing what they're talking about.

 

What are the other reasons, and how many of those are performed?

 

the only difference between a fetus and a person is it's geographic location.

 

That is an absurd assertion.

 

In this case, the geographic location is significant, but you're just wrong. Take a look at the changes AT BIRTH in just the circulatory system alone.

http://eileen.undonet.com/Main/7_R_Eile/BirthChange.htm

So, to summarize, the hemodynamics of the immediate newborn and term fetus differ in these major ways, and many more minor ones...ALL abruptly changing at the moment of birth:

arterial and venous blood no longer mix in the atria
the vena cava now carries only deoxygenated blood into the right atrium, where it goes into the right ventricle, and then is pumped to the pulmonary arteries, and finally to the pulmonary capillary bed
the aorta now carries only oxygenated blood from the left heart via the pulmonary veins for distribution to the rest of the body.
The 'pipework' is still mostly there, but what enormous changes have taken place in a few short seconds!

So, I'd appreciate if we didn't say that the immediate newborn and term fetus are almost identical, because they just aren't. The digestive changes alone would be ten times the length of this very basic circulatory primer, and the respiratory chemistry changes at the instant of birth could fill a book.

My sources:

Gray's Anatomy 15th Edition; 1995
Human Anatomy and Physiology, Second Edition, John W. Hole jr. 1988 Wm C. Brown Co.
Current Obstetric and Gynecologic Diagnosis and Treatment 8th Ed, DeCherney, Pernoll 1994

 

Because it violates your standards of political correctness.

 

See post #92.

 

Sorry, I'm not seeing the connection between the cited post and your response. I'm not sure what you're asking...what other reason for what performance?

 

The difference? Some of y'all see an it (chattel) where others see a someone.

 

Okay, so if it's circulatory system isn't developed, it's not an organism. lol.

 

You seem to be having trouble with what the discussion was about. In this instance we were talking about the difference in before birth and after birth. The question of "organism" wasn't involved. Now I'd like to hear you say that there's a difference in the fetus before birth and the baby after birth.

 

nothing new in that then.