Already Gone....

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Grey Matter, Sep 18, 2022.

  1. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    From my point of view this whole thing with China being where it is today began with Tricky Dick. From a micro perspective anyway. Macro, well, nah, from that angle it's just,



    World turning, sorry, just having some fun with these tunes, mostly inapplicable as is Already Gone other than the titles, but hey, enjoy the jams if nothing else.

    I think I may have dropped an opinion around here that the US ought to let it be known to China that we will launch nukes if they invade Taiwan. Not quite that strong was the post I'm thinking of if I did in fact even post it.

    Ugh, sorry, sometimes I feel like I'm just hanging out here chatting with friends....

    ****
    The United States has already ceded so much power to Communist China by virtue of its Corporations use of virtual slave labor manufacturing that it no longer has any legitimate claim to oppose the PRC's intent to finally reclaim Taiwan from the legacy of Chiang Kai-shek's exile and his foreign alien supporters.

    Prove me wrong...
     
  2. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I place it much more on President Carter. All President Nixon did was to normalize relations with the PRC and start official recognition. Something that had to be done, because the UN and most other nations had already done that. And that started the US in its "Two China" policy.

    However, President Carter in 1979 is the one that flipped it to a "One China" police, and removed all official recognition of Taiwan. It is one thing to officially recognize a nation that had been in existence for two decades. However, revoking the official status of another nation was something I still find it hard to comprehend.

    And at least President Reagan quickly made clear that it was not going to simply "throw Taiwan to the wolves" when he issued the "Six Assurances" in July 1982.
     
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  3. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member Donor

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    Democrats do seem to have a lot of demonstrable alliegence to the Chinese. And make the leap with me, the CCP (communist party of China). It seems awfully convenient for those woke democrats who yearn to live under the yoke of authoritarian rules pretty much all line up as democrats.

    The real danger of democrats these days is that they just seem to ignore their own who have been compromised.
     
  4. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't blame any of these President's so much as I blame the CEOs of our corporations and even to some extent I don't "blame" them really. To be perfectly honest I suppose I am guilty of assigning stuff to Nixon in the interest of combatting some of the folks that assert our current CnC is a China sock puppet but our last CnC loves his Country.

    I'm not as well versed as I'd like to be to argue the history of this stuff here in general or with you specifically, and it surprised me that while I was recently researching Oliver Stone's assertion in "The Untold History of the United States" that Ho Chi Minh reached out to Ike and was ignored, which I found to be laughable on one hand and factual to a large extent based on the manner that the US delegation left Geneva with this kinda laissez-faire you guys sort this out attitude, I ran across the fact that apparently Chiang Kai-shek seemingly formed the "nation" of Taiwan, basically as the resistance toward Mao's Communist PRC as a government in exile.

    So my argument for the moment still stands that defending Taiwan given the 50 years of de facto support we've favored the PRC with is wildly inconsistent at best and a sad excuse to pretend that the US gives a crap about freedom over corporate profits in most any case....
     
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  5. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    Joe? You're referring to Joe Biden vs Donald Trump?
     
  6. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    China wants to rule the world with the CCP at the top.

    Our political establishment wants international corporations (some of them Chinese...) to run the world with bureaucratic think tanks funded by the banking elite at the top.

    Not a whole lot of difference there. At least China is looking out for its own interests. We troublesome Americans and our pesky rights are just in the way of our overlords' aspirations.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022
  7. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    If you are talking about their large industry, for that to be honest I mostly blame on the US population.

    There was at one time a matter of pride that one "Bought American". They did not even care that it cost more, they knew that for their money they generally got a superior product for their money. In addition to supporting their own jobs and the jobs of other Americans across the country. At one time, we were the leaders of the world for vehicles, appliances, ships, electronics, and almost everything else from clothing to toys.

    But starting in the 1980s, people stopped "Buying American", and shopped for price before anything else. And at the same time, started to shift to a "disposable" outlook on what they bought.

    Look at the "Consumer Electronics" area to see that first hand. You once had world leaders like RCA, Magnavox, Quasar, and a slew of others. All top of the line products, and industry leaders. But by the 1990s price was far more important than where something was made. In fact, often times they were inferior but that did not matter, they were cheaper. And within 20 years we had no more companies making things like TVs, VCRs, or much else in the US. The consumers themselves "sold out", chasing price instead of anything else.



    The above ad is from 1978, and is already trying to warn the people of this happening. Of consumers not "buying American" and buying imports. And notice, that was not by "Corporations", but by one of the major unions in the country. But don't bother to try and find the ILGWU. They were dissolved in 1995. By that time most US textile companies had to relocate overseas to even stay competitive in the face of cheaper imports.

    And the claim that it is "greed" kinda falls flat when the the companies that tried to resist relocating overseas have largely all vanished. Of all the big Home Electronics companies from decades ago, only 2 are left.

    Motorola left the TV industry decades ago, and sold it to Panasonic. Since then they have concentrated in communications and component fabrication.

    RCA does not exist as it was, but is a name only used on occasion by JVC. Which is ironic, as JVC was originally a spin-off from RCA to try and revitalize Japanese industry.
     
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  8. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'd say the evidence included in the emails publicly available that Joe Biden is as compromised a president as we have ever had. There is no comparison.
     
  9. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    I find your analysis incredible. Do you support Biden’s throw of the gauntlet regarding Taiwan?
     
  10. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    Give me a break from your imagined lack of freedumb for a minute ffs. Are you in favor of getting into beef with China over Taiwan?
     
  11. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    I know this is not directed at me, but I unequivocally say "Yes".

    In fact, I will go it even a step farther. That the US should once again officially recognize Taiwan as a nation, and immediately push for UN recognition of such as well.

    I find it almost surrealistic that the world does not "officially recognize" a nation that has existed since 1947. I do agree that as the vastly larger country that the status of a founding member of the UN and veto rights should remain with the PRC. But after 75 freaking years of independence from China, we should stop playing by their game and recognize Taiwan as a separate and independent nation.

    And yes, I have no problems "getting into a beef" with Taiwan, no more than I have no problems getting in a beef over Kuwait when they were taken over by Iraq over 30 years ago. And I would have no problem with us getting involved in the Ukraine, if they had ever gotten off of their high-horse and actually committed to joining any alliance like NATO instead of burying their head in the sand and believing that by remaining neutral they would be safe. But we have had a relationship with the government on Taiwan now for over 100 years, and it is long past the time we acknowledge that and fully commit to them again.

    And even if just the US recognized the nation, that would send a loud and clear message to the PRC that we are no longer going to be pushed around by bullies. And that we will fully stand behind our friends.
     
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  12. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    Theoretically and ideologically I'm still inclined to go nuts against the PRC in defense of Taiwan, however, there is obviously a new world order developing and it's headquarters is not in DC or Davos or London or the Hague. It's in Bejing. Possibly New Delhi, but as of now all I see there is idiotic satellite carnage and desktop job slave labor. And the thing is, as I mentioned in the OP, this ship has sailed and we outfitted the ship, or at least rigged the sails....

    Curious, though, on a side note, in your opinion, were the Kurds our friends? Did we stand by them?
     
  13. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's the fundamental precept of capitalism that hasn't changed since I learned it in, third grade I think it was. Capitalism is based on selling the best product at the lowest price. I asked you once before and I'll ask it maybe a couple of more times including this time - how in the world of all the things that you have such both a broad and deep knowledge of did television sets end up among them? Your Dad helped manufacture them maybe? For some reason I rather vividly recall your description of all of the features of, I believe, it was a Zenith product and your description was simply fascinating to me obviously. But the classic economic example is Japanese cars and their success tied in with the statistical quality control methods attributed to Deming. Blaming consumers for seeking an optimum balance between cost and quality is just not a solid position I think. I'm still pleased that I spent my High School graduation money on a BX100 and I doubt very much that I'd ever buy any other vehicle than a Toyota given my current and expected financial situation. This isn't fully decided though on my part. Fix Or Repair Daily has made a crazy F150 with a built-in 7.2KW generator that is a big temptation for living here in hurricane country....
     
  14. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What part of my mention of our rights makes you think that I think we have a lack of freedom? How could our rights be in the way of those who don't want us to have them if we didn't have them? It seems you're having a knee-jerk at something I said...

    Anyway, as I understand it, we do not have a formal treaty to defend Taiwan from Chinese aggression. We say we will, then won't, then will... just the standard wishy-washy subjective BS that politicians use to avoid having to actually commit to something so they can wait and pick whichever lines their pockets the most. I would support the establishment of such a treaty, as I believe it would serve to prevent Chinese aggression, and I also believe it would be in line with our values of promoting relative freedom. However, without such a treaty, I don't think we should (as a nation) become militarily involved in their defense. We are not nor should we be the world's police. But I would personally be willing to go there myself and try to help fend off invasion if necessary (and if invited). The CCP is an evil organization that represents everything bad about the authority of government and is worthy of being resisted with force.
     
  15. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    Dude, I respect you so don't accuse me of misrepresenting your position on politics and just f'g own it.

    You seem to have a classically jaded view of "politicians". Management I guess iyo are all politicians, amiright?
     
  16. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Dude, I am 'management' ...and I hate it.

    As far as my 'position'- America is still the freedomest nation on the planet. Its just that that isn't saying much these days...
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
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  17. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    Nice. A little bit bizarre, but nice nevertheless. This idea that you have that bully boy Trump is being bullied though, ugh, dude. Can’t properly debate this absurdity without a campfire and a beer.
     
  18. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't think anyone can actually 'bully' Trump... what specifically are you talking about? I suspect you may have a false impression.

    Perhaps this will help- Trump was not a good president. He was just the best president we've had in a long time. I'd prefer another Eisenhower or JFK... but we don't get those anymore.
     
  19. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member Donor

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    I doubt Biden actually threw an actual gauntlet did he? The more plausible explanation is that he created the actual tension, just like with Russia, where his commentary will be viewed as the invitation for conflict that it was. When Biden said he'd use US troops, I don't think he was serious. More, I think he was hoping that having said that that in the future, when pressed by the Chinese, that his acquiescence when it does happen will be remembered so he doesn't look like the pantywaste he actually is.
     
  20. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm thinking of a post of yours that asserted that the establishment, or some similar phrase, was engaged in bullying Trump. It was an epic assertion from my point of view, but I can't find the post at the moment. But here is another epic assertion from my point of view, that Trump was the best President we've had in a long time.
     
  21. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I prolly said 'persecuting' or 'targetting', not bullying.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
  22. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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  23. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    No, actually that is not it at all. If you think that, I suggest that you start with the writings of Adam Smith. That is not what Capitalism is at all.

    Well, let's just say that in my almost 60 years I have been a ceaseless reader for most of that. And yes, among those interests is a deep one in electronics, and following the industry for decades as well as spending decades in the "Pro AV" area. But one should not even need that to just look around if they go to a store, and realize that not a single TV sold anymore is "made in the US". Oh yes, there was one a couple of years ago that tried to claim that, but it was really just a Chinese company a few years ago that got in trouble with the FTC because they had made that claim. But the only part made in the US was the case at most, everything else came from China so they were ordered to change to "assembled" instead of "made".

    And it is not just televisions, but even when they were still being made here, by the mid-1990s the US was pretty much out of the VCR game. And the home stereo game. And the only market left for the televisions was actually the high-end market, as that was the only aspect at the time that the imports were not even trying to capture. I still remember my last tube TV, I bought it for a steal at $50 in 2003. It was a Zenith, and it must have had 50 connections in the back for inputting and outputting almost everything. Around $2,500 brand new in the mid-late 1990s, the pawn shop I found it in was dumping all the tubes though so I got it for a song.

    The automotive industry actually largely is supported by Government and Corporate purchases. That is enough to keep them afloat pretty much, the consumer end is largely the area they make a profit in. That is why you have so many models that are only available as "fleet cars", and are almost never sold to individuals.

    But as I said, there is price, then there is quality. I like Toyota myself, and had owned several. But there is little comparison with a Corolla and a Taurus. Or other then when they had some bad models the Celica and the Mustang.

    But notice, the US car companies are still there, so obviously you are looking at the wrong place. It is the "Consumer Electronics" and "Textile" industries that the US largely gave away everything, and started to lose their middle class.

    I invite you to find catalogs of consumer electronics in the 1980's and 1990's. It used to be easy online, but in the last 5 years or so most of them for some reason are now "pay sites". But by 1995, the US had already given up the "bottom end" of the TV market, they could not compete based on price against the ones made in Korea (specifically Goldstar, now known as LG). So instead they concentrated on the mid and top line units. SAP, Closed Captions, OSP, Picture in Picture, stereo, surround sound, multiple inputs and outputs so you could hook up your VCR, Cable TV box, satellite TV box, and your antenna and with the push of a button flip between them on your remote. And overall, such a set would cost about 5-10% more than the "cheap import", and people just got the cheap ones. Then spent that same money buying other things to do that instead.

    One of the last VCRs I bought was actually at the exchange in 1992. A 4 head stereo unit, that was made in the US and cost around $130. And it was superior to the cheap Korean ones sold at other places with mono, 2 heads, and around $95. But people stopped buying by quality and where it was made and only looked at the price. And I think that is why now we have a "disposable economy:. When you had a $200 or more piece of electronics and it broke, you spent the money to fix it. Today, you just throw it away and buy a new one. And nobody expects a cheap TV bought today to last more than 5 or 6 years. When it dies, you just get a new one.

    TV repair was once a thriving industry also. In the living room I still got a quality RCA floor console from the early 1990's. And it still works like a champ, but it is largely only used by the kidlets that visit as trying to hook up a classic game console like an NES to a modern TV is almost always a fail.

    A lot of the imports like "Japanese Cars" largely existed to replace the low end that the US was simply not interested in making. Why make a sub-$3,000 car when the demand is just not there? It is not that they were better, they were cheaper. And that was the way it was actually until the early 1980's. Toyota even made higher end cars like the "Mark II" that sold well overseas. But then they decided to export it to the US as the "Cressida". And it largely tanked, because it was essentially equivalent to a midrange Buick or Mercury, and at the same price. And nobody wanted to spend that much for a Toyota.

    So after killing it in the US, they made a new badge and tried again as the "Lexus".

    But look at the areas that the US is no longer involved in. And that is the consumer goods, where most of the disposable income is spent. TVs, stereos, small appliances, dishes, silverware, clothing, all of that is gone and nobody seems to care. Then they wonder why most of the jobs available are now low paying service jobs. Because we ourselves stopped buying our own goods, and they either moved overseas, or went out of business.
     
  24. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sure it is, it distils the essence of the argument in favor of free markets, doesn't it?
    What is capitalism without the free market component?
    Nothing - it is the essential feature of the concept.
     
  25. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Last edited: Sep 26, 2022
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