American gun deaths

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by LafayetteBis, Dec 9, 2018.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    From the Guardian: 2018 is worst year on record for gun violence in schools, data shows

    Excerpt:

    It is clear that American schools are no longer safe from kids who "go bonkers" with a gun.

    Instead of wasting $650B on the DoD, why not take some of that money and fund schools to implement detector entry-gates? And stores put them in for customer scrutiny and guns be no longer allowed sales in such outlets?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  2. Matt22yuc

    Matt22yuc Active Member

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    Start with the 2 billion wasted in the DEA.
     
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  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One-liner sarcastic nonsense unfitting of a Debate Forum ...
     
  4. Matt22yuc

    Matt22yuc Active Member

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    Who said I was being sarcastic?
     
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  5. Wildjoker5

    Wildjoker5 Well-Known Member

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    How would that have stopped the kid in Broward county who pulled the fire alarm and shot the kids as they evacuated the school?

    How does the single entry point, full checks on everything that comes in and out of prisons work to keep people from dying by sharp objects work?

    Do you think a mass shooter wannabe will just give up the homicidal tendency because one soft target isn't as easy to get to as it used to be? Whats to stop them from waiting till the kids are marching out of school at the end of the day? Or the jocks are on the field for practice? Or popping up on a full school bus?
     
  6. PRAIRIEOUTLAW

    PRAIRIEOUTLAW Member

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    Seems like the mass murders are a VERY small percentage of those gun deaths.... in fact, I'd go so far as to argue that they are so unlikely that you're more likely to be struck by lightning while riding a bicycle naked than being killed by a gun in a mass shooting....
    The question is... how many are acceptable? Well, none really, but I'm not sure how anyone thinks that laws will prevent intent when there are already laws against what is happening and we see how those are working out.
    Furthermore, anyone saying that single point entries on school campuses is the way to go, has evidently NOT been on a school campus. It's totally impractical and won't solve the problem.
     
  7. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Me - and if you don't know the difference between sarcasm and wit, then look it up in the dictionary ...
     
  8. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    IN THE NAME OF "GOD"

    Thank you, because I live in Europe and I am sooooooo pleased (and relieved!) to understand that in the US your gun-deaths are so very low and irregular that it makes no difference that knot-heads can buy them.

    And when it comes to gun-death homicides in general, you stateside are all very, very happy that the resultant death rate is ONLY 4.4 times mine here in France! (From here.)

    Brilliant argument!

    Ours rules here in Europe are of another kind and the major reason gun-related deaths are so much lower. The kids cannot get their hands on machine-guns, even if one belongs to "dad". They are not permitted for sale. You cannot find an AK-47 (or any equivalent of it) in a store here.

    Ask yourself why, because you do not seem to understand the stark answer.

    What we have in the EU going on at the moment as I write is some knothead of a pseudo-jihadist* .. jerk has killed three adults late last night in Strasbourg. (Which is where the EU legislature sits.)

    So, this jerk thankfully did not have fully automatic rifle. He had a hand-gun. So, ONLY three have died. Wow - and Thank God! (Yes, thank him!)

    WHAT'S A JIHADIST?

    He is the modern day Muslim-equivalent of a 12th century Catholic Knight who set off on his horse to Jerusalem to "free it from the infidel Muslims".

    Ten centuries and this baneful world of ours is still fighting religious wars!

    Most of them in the "name of God"! Whom we Christians haven't seen on earth for more than 2000 years but we are about to celebrate his birthday nonetheless. And whom the "other side" says is just another holy-man like a guy they call Mohammed!

    Stop the world, I wanna get off ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  9. Matt22yuc

    Matt22yuc Active Member

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    Forgive me professor. My comment was neither sarcasm nor wit so try again. Perhaps you should put down the dictionary and work on your reading comprehension skills.
     
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  10. Matt22yuc

    Matt22yuc Active Member

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    Hate to break it to you but fully automatic weapons are illegal. Kids cannot get their hands on machine guns because they are illegal and cannot be bought in a store. You can argue about guns all you want to but the premise that fully automatic weapons/machine guns are a problem is simply false.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
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  11. PRAIRIEOUTLAW

    PRAIRIEOUTLAW Member

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    You obviously have NO IDEA what you're talking about when it comes to guns.... Just tell me this oh brilliant one.... IF your countries gun laws work so well, how is it that the deaths you just spoke of even happened?
    If you want real numbers and REAL facts, I'll educate you, but if you're just another one of those across the pond idiots that think they can negotiate the disarming of this great country.... Forget it... you don't have a say here, and you don't matter in that case.
    You choose....
     
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  12. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    Machine guns are not illegal, and you can absolutely buy them in stores. But I agree, they are in no way a problem.
     
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  13. Matt22yuc

    Matt22yuc Active Member

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    Technically you’re right but we’re splitting hairs. It is illegal to own a machine gun without going through the strict regulatory channels to acquire one. The poster paints a false picture like people are just running through the streets with machine guns or that I can just easily walk into a store and buy one. Which is patently absurd. But regardless we both agree it’s just a red herring not based in facts.
     
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  14. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    No, you can easily walk into any FFL that has a class 3 license and buy a machine gun. The process is extremely easy.
     
  15. PRAIRIEOUTLAW

    PRAIRIEOUTLAW Member

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    I think you might be mistaken.... Just because an FFL is a class three license holder doesn't mean every Tom, Dick, and Harry can BUY a fully automatic weapon. First off, there aren't any legal ones after 1986, and the ones that ARE on the market have values of tens of thousands of dollars.
    In addition, to LEGALLY buy a machine gun, you have to complete the application process which has an average wait time of 9 month - 1 year. The owners are then subject to plenty of other "rules" about their new toy. That doesn't sound "easy" to me.

    Sources:

    https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/national-firearms-act
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...-extremely-difficult-and-especially-expensive
     
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  16. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    if you can legally purchase a handgun, you can legally purchase a machine gun from a class 3 dealer.
    no it isn't. if you buys as an individual, the turn around time is around 6 months. If you form a trust or LLC, and the trust or LLC purchases it, the turn around time is around 90 days.
    because you don't seem to know about the class 3 process. It is very easy.
     
  17. PRAIRIEOUTLAW

    PRAIRIEOUTLAW Member

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    How about some proof of your opinions.... I've given plenty to back up what I've said.... Have You?
    You said it's EASY.... yet everything you have posted SHOWS it's not even in your own OPINIONATED posts.... Lets see that evidence that the stuff you post is actually accurate.

    The ATF is my source and they are the ones making the decisions, what is your proof?

    Oh, and forming an LLC is a whole different ball game.... It comes with it's own set of rules, regulations, taxes, and just general bull crap to deal with.... It might be somewhat simple in your state, but it's not in every state. For example, in CA, LLC's have to pay minimum annual taxes of $800.

    Yea, I don't call that EASY......

    Care to try again?
     
  18. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/NFAGuidelines.pdf
    The ATF supports me,lol. Buying any class 3 weapon is extremely easy. If you can legally own a handgun, you can purchase a class 3 weapon.
    no argument there. LLC's can be expensive. Trusts, can be formed at no charge. I formed one in 2013, to purchase 2 suppressors.
    because you don't seem to know anything about the class 3 process.

    try what? I pointed out the ease with which class 3 weapons can be purchased.
     
  19. PRAIRIEOUTLAW

    PRAIRIEOUTLAW Member

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    I guess your definition of EASY and mine are different... When something requires you to jump through so many hoops or it's so expensive that MOST people want do it, THATS not easy to me.
    Can these guns be purchased? Yes, but if you have been through the process to buy a suppressor, you know it isn't as easy as buying a handgun. You can't just you walk into a store and walk out with one of these guns.... I can do that with a handgun, but not a machine gun.
    Can you get one? Yes, but it's by no means easy. And that isn't because I don't understand the process. I've actually been considering buying one myself.
     
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  20. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    again, this is because you don't understand the class 3 process. I will agree that full autos are pretty much unaffordable, for your average joe.
    it is just as easy as buying a handgun.
    right. that doesn't have any relevance to the ease of purchasing one though. It's just a wait time.
    The fact remains buying class 3 weapons is an extremely easy process. If you can legally own a handgun, you can purchase any class 3 weapon.
     
  21. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Buying Class 3 is not as easy as buying a handgun.

    Class 3 purchases require the usual firearm process (for a FFL fill out a form 4473 and a background check, plus state rules) plus a tax application for each item. In most states, in order to purchase a Class 3 firearm the local law enforcement has to sign the application and in some of those states (Tennessee for example) the local LE approval is "shall sign" meaning the local LE has the authority to deny your purchase.

    Some states ban automatic firearms (Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Washington, several more) but not handguns.

    The ATF has to approve every Class 3 transfer even when its between 2 private individuals. It can take months to get ATF approval. The ATF does not have to approve every handgun purchase.

    And there is the cost. A "machine gun" is incredibly expensive, generally well above $10,000.
     
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  22. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    buring a class 3 weapon is very easy. I said if you can legally own a handgun, you are able to purchase a class 3 weapon. these are all demonstrable facts
     
  23. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    And you are wrong. The review for buying Class 3 is higher than for a handgun. That 2+ month delay waiting for ATF approval is not the ATF just sitting on the form (dealer transfers take 1-2 weeks right now so its not a simple paperwork delay), they are contacting local law enforcement and doing a basic background check. They don't just check NICS, particularly in this rabid gun banner environment.

    In fact, if you apply for Class 3 and are rejected, you likely also go on NICS as a no-go.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  24. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    lol, I am demonstrably correct.

    no it isn't. If you can legally own a handgun, you can purchase a class 3 weapon.
    the long wait time is due to the fact that there are less than a dozen employees at the FBI, handling class 3 paperwork. So, the back log is quite high.

    yes. If you are rejected from purchasing a class 3 weapon, that means you are prohibited from owning a handgun. As I pointed out already.
     
  25. PRAIRIEOUTLAW

    PRAIRIEOUTLAW Member

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    Ok, So you say it's as easy to buy a class three firearm as a handgun..... You sent me to the Buds Gunshop page as your source of this information..... Correct? (Its linked above if you need to look back.)
    Here is the link directly: https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/NFAGuidelines.pdf

    I've pointed out several times that it IS NOT as easy as you keep saying to get a class 3 firearm, but you're basing all of this off of the link above.....

    I've argued the wait time is redonkulous where it is NOT that way with a handgun.... you said I was wrong on time it took to process the document and it was just because of "only a few agents working the process"
    .... First line at the top of the third page from the link.... and I quote: "How long is the wait? Wait time for ATF approval on Form 4s varies. The current estimate is 12 months."
    That's your source not mine.... So I was right, you were wrong.

    I've pointed out that the limited availability of the firearms makes them all but unattainable for most which would equate to NOT AS EASY.... You even agreed... "I will agree that full autos are pretty much unaffordable, for your average joe."

    You keep saying "You don't understand the Class 3 Process"....
    This is simply untrue.... I understand the process.... I'm saying that it IS harder for the average joe to get his/her hands on a class 3 firearm LEGALLY, than a handgun.... You are saying it isn't and that I just don't understand the process.... Show me where I'm confused...

    If the guns require more paperwork, (they do) require more wait time (they require ALOT more wait time), and they are all but unaffordable due to regulations (THEY ARE)... then logic would say they are MUCH more difficult to get. I'm not saying they CAN'T be gotten by anyone willing to wait, pay, AND be regulated more than with other guns, but to say they are just as easy to get is a fallacy. Can we agree on that?
     

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