Appeasing the Soviet taking of Central Europe was criminal?

Discussion in 'Diplomacy & Conflict Resolution' started by BlackHogGranolaBrown, Feb 22, 2017.

  1. BlackHogGranolaBrown

    BlackHogGranolaBrown Banned

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    I happen to think the appeasement of Soviets by the U.S.A, and Britain in Yalta Conference, Potsdam Conference, and Lend-Lease support to get them there was criminal.

    Many people died, went hungry, ended up displaced, and even imprisoned for thought crimes forced into slave labor.

    But, it seems some people think this wasn't criminal;
     
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  2. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    100% agree. If the USA had followed Churchill's plan to just continue thru Eastern and Central Europe we would have defeated Germany before Russia ever got there. The results would have been:

    1. Stalin would not have been able to enslave Eastern and Central Europe countries - all that we instead lied to and betrayed.
    2. There would have been no Berlin blockade.
    3. There would have been no Warsaw Pact
    4. There would have been no Cold War.
    5. The war would have been shorter and less lives lost.

    If our lend-lease had ONLY been to the UK and not Russia, Germany would have effectively crippled - if not outright killed - Stalin, while we proceeded then to take out Hitler and the Nazis from the South. A post-war united Germany from the onset would have offset the diminished Russia without all its slave labor Central and Eastern European countries.

    It is ironic to read so many Democrats now cursing pursuing good relations with Russia now particularly over Eastern Ukraine, when the Democrats then wholeheartedly supported Russia invading and controlling all of the Ukraine, all of Central Europe and all of Eastern Europe because Stalin was our pal - in their opinion. In fact, Democrats hold up FDR and Truman as 2 of their greatest presidents - when both of them gave away all those countries to Russia. To be as great as FDR and Truman in the eyes of Democrats, President Trump would have to give all those countries back to Russia.
     
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  3. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    If anything else other, the Soviets should've been kept east of the Vistula, somewhere in Belarus, couldve been easily done.
     
  4. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    You are at least close to right. We should have pushed the Soviets back into Russia.
    It would not have been a bad idea to simply crush communism everywhere it showed up.
     
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  5. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And start a Third World War as we were still fighting the Second?

    Not very smart.
     
  6. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    The criminal part if there was one was not helping the tzar kill off the bolsheviks.
    A mistake we repeated by not killing off mao and thr Chinese communists.
     
  7. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Oh, that's rich! Explain how it could have been done easily.
     
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  8. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Would have been easy p 51s would have swept the skies of migs and laggs.

    P 47s would have destroyed their armor.
    B 17s would have destroyed their war making capability Lancasters would have leveled moscow and m1 garands would have slaughtered any commies who didn't surrender.

    Or hell if we would have nuked Stalin and freed the Russians from communism the world would be a much better place.
     
  9. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    That dream would have turned into a nightmare.

    1. We had no more training divisions in the US, meaning we were maxed out in Europe, while the Russians still had 120 reserve divisions.

    2. The Germans, British, and French were worn out as well, and they would not have helped the US in the east.

    3. The US had no interest in the east because we still were fighting on Okinawa when Germany surrendered and would do so for another five weeks, with 49000 killed and wounded. And the Japanese Home Islands were next, and guess where the great majority of equipment, munitions, etc., were going?

    4. If the US had been foolish enough to attack the Russians with what we had in Europe, Americans would have killed Russians until there were no more Americans left.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  10. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Nope we would have killed all of those reserves commies while they were still on trains headed west.

    But otherwise you are right and the proper time to act was during the Russian revolution.

    No country has the right to impose communism on it's people.
     
  11. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    To think we could successfully throw back the Russians is only a delusion.

    I never said a thing about the Russian revolution. The Brits and the US and the FR tried and failed.

    After four years fighting Germany and her allies, the Russians were not even a little bit afraid of the Americans.

    Your opinions are your opinions so good on you.

    Here is a great song of the Motherland.

     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  12. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    LOL....for starters ease off on the lend lease the Sovs were receiving, also on the bombing raids over Germany....this probably would've allowed Germany to annihilate 10+ million Sovs or more....limiting their ability to advance.

    Without a lot of that lend lease the Sovs would've been f***Ed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  13. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Russia didn't have the manufacturing or the logistical capability to fight a two front war against all if Europe America and China.

    The Russian airforce would have been demolished within a few days and without an airforce the rest of their military would have been sitting ducks.
     
  14. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Sigh. Russia was not fighting China.

    It had a massive Army and a massive air force and a massive industrial base by early 1945.

    Any idea that the US could have taken on Russia in eastern Europe is a pipe dream not supported by facts.

     
  15. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Sorry china would fought on our side,

    Russia's manufacturing capabilities yes they could make lots of stuff, it was all junk. Yaks, migs and laggs would have been blown to bits. And as i said before America and british bombers would have killed Russians by the division.

    To think that ground forces would have been a major part of such an operation would be a fallacy.
     
  16. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    China was fighting Japan and the Reds. Nationalist China would have not taken on a third front.

    The Russians made good equipment. Their light tac attack bomber was the best in the world, and the T-34 would have chewed up our armor.

    The Brits and French and Germans would not have fought.

    The Russians, by the end of the fourth week, would have been in Brussels and Rotterdam.
     
  17. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    The storm birds would have fallen like raindrops and the p 47 was a much better atrack aircraft by chance than the sturmavik was on purpose. Hell the la11 was a copy of the P 47 and got ahnilated by p 51s in Korean. They literally killed them at will.

    The Russian air force couldn't even have begun to defend itself. Like the Germans the Russian airforce was exhausted and most of their good pilots were dead while America pilots had barely gotten started.
    We had fighter pilots trying to get to combat but who couldn't because they just weren't needed, we were throwing away brand new planes.

    Their t 34s would never have made it to the front lines.
    Thats not to mention that the P80 shooting star and the british meteor would have been untouchable to the soviets.
     
  18. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    LOL....if the Russkis could've been in Brussels....why was the Georgian pig Stalin's constantly screaming for lend lease....easy, the Sovs were ****ed without it.

    A lot of that "good stuff" the Sovs had was US made....Sherman's, Willys jeeps, half their Katyushka rocket launchers were mounted on Ford Studebaker truck beds. Without them they woulda been useless against Tigers, Panthers& Puma 8 wheel drives.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  19. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Why wouldn't he being asking for Lend Lease?

    Anyone who thinks the Nazis could have beaten the Russians (without an atomic weapon) simply does not understand the history of WWII.
     
  20. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    This is true. Good thing hitler was an idiot.
     
  21. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    So he could defeat the Germans!:))), Without it the Russkis were sunk.
     
  22. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    That's your bear to hunt. The Russian bear hunted down the German condor.
     
  23. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    If the US stayed out of the war there was a chance that if the divisions Hitler sent to north Africa instead went to the eastern front, it might have been enough. Fuel was his biggest problem if he got the divisions there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  24. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Hitler did not understand the politics of the Soviet Union, and how when in danger the Soviets had no problem beating the drum of Nationalism.

    Der Painter was a National Socialist, and put Nationalism before Socialism. He also assumed that for various reasons the Soviets would fail to use Nationalism at all, and stick 100% to their Internationalist beliefs. And that this would help drive even more towards them, in disgust with the way they were treated by Internationalists.

    But that did not happen, and the Soviets had no problem if needed promoting the fight was also for Georgians, Ukrainians, and all other groups not just Russians.

    If the popular uprising against the Soviet masters that he had expected then things would have been very different indeed. And there actually were some rather wide-spread support for them among many occupied areas. Which often quickly soured with the brutality of his government's treatment of them.
     
  25. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    I am literally shaking my head at the levels of ignorance & stupidity on this thread. If anyone needs proof that ideology makes people stupid this thread is a great example.

    WW2 was not popular in the US. People willingly accepted the sacrifice because 1) they were attacked; and 2) they accepted that a Europe dominated by Fascism was bad for everyone. The idea that Roosevelt, Truman or any US President could just flip a switch & attack a US ally with the largest army in the world is 100% pure fantasy. You are talking hundreds of thousands of casualties.

    US allies would be of little use. Britain was exhausted and overstretched. It was trying to keep together a restive Empire and people at home were sick of war. Why the hell do people think Churchill was voted out before the war even ended? The British people saw him as a wartime leader and they were looking forward to peace. I doubt Clement Atlee on his most stupid day would agree to attacking the USSR. Churchill talked a good game with other people's lives, but even had he been in power he would have struggled to get this through Parliament.

    No one else in Europe was in any shape to help the US, and anyone stupid enough to think that the Germans could just be re-armed without massive public outcry really shouldn't be using the internet without mummy & daddy supervising.

    Oh, and the idea that China might be of any use in a war against Russia is one of the most bizarre things I have ever read. For those who are apparently unaware of what happened in WW2, China got badly beaten up by Japan and then the Red Army cut through the Japanese like a knife through hot butter. The Nationalist government was barely in control of its own armies. Only 1 year the Communist Chinese forces showed that they could match it with KMT forces when properly armed - something the USSR would cheerfully help with. So, no help there.

    If this is just an 'on paper' conflict then the US might be able to push Russia back out of a decent chunk of Central Europe...but wars happen in the real world, not on paper. Sadly too many people on this thread seem not to have much familiarity with the real world.
     
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