Are the Palestinians the Jews NOT expelled from Judaea after Bar Kochba Revolt?

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by DennisTate, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because Orthodox Jewish scholars firmly believe in the restoration of the lost tribes of Israel this new genetic research that indicates that the Palestinians are "Jewish" may play a significant role in genuine peace coming between Israelis and Palestinians!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsvi_Misinai



    http://www.drbo.org/chapter/26048.htm
    "And Elias the prophet stood up, as a fire, and his word burnt like a torch................Who anointedst kings to penance, and madest prophets successors after thee. [9] Who wast taken up in a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot of fiery horses. [10] Who art registered in the judgments of times to appease the wrath of the Lord, to reconcile the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob."
     
  2. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    WHO ARE THE PALESTINIANS? WHAT & WHERE IS PALESTINE?
    ~by HBendor

    There is a preliminary historical fact that must be established now. There has never, I repeat NEVER, been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian" Arab NATION having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world!

    There is, nor has there EVER been a distinct Palestinian culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian State governed by ARAB Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a Palestinian national movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War, when Israel regained control over Judea and Samaria (the so-called "West Bank").

    It was then, and only then, that a Palestinian national movement was born with one primary goal: the creation of an Arab Palestinian State with which to replace Israel.

    It's that simple!
    Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, two thousand years BEFORE the rise of Islam!

    Seven hundred and twenty-six years later in 586 BCE, these first ancient Jews were overrun and its First Jewish Temple (on today's Temple Mount!) was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, king of ancient Babylon. Many of the Jews were killed or expelled; however many were allowed to remain. These Jews along with their progeny and other Jews, who would resettle over the next 500 years, rebuilt the Nation of Israel. Thus the claim that Jews suddenly appeared Sixty Five years ago right after the Holocaust and drove out the "ancient Arab Palestinians" is preposterous!

    Then in 70 CE (nearly 2000 years ago), it was the Roman Empire's turn to march through ancient Israel and destroy the SECOND Jewish Temple, slaughtering or driving out much of its Jewish population. Many Jews left on their own because conditions for life were made unbearable in many respects, yet thousands and thousands stayed and rebelled on for centuries in order to once again rebuild a Jewish Nation in this Holy Land.

    Over these next 2,000 years various Peoples, Religions and Empires have marched through Jerusalem, Israel's ancient capital. None bothered, nor were in the least interested in, building a Nation of their own. Included in these "invaders" were the Arabs. Thus in the year 636CE Arab marauders came to the land and uprooted even more of its Jews. However, they too did NOT form an Arab nation... and certainly NOT a "Palestinian" nation. Moreover, remember this one fact... it was not the Jews who "usurped" (a favorite word from the Arab propagandists) the land from the Arabs. If anything, it was the Arabs in 636CE who overran and stole it from the Jews!

    In Conclusion: No nation, other than the ancient nations of Israel and later the Reconstituted Nation of Israel in 1948, has ever ruled as a sovereign national entity on this land.
     
  3. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Who are the REAL Palestinians?

    ~by HBendor

    Who are really the so-called "Palestinians?"

    WE are, WE the Jews are the REAL Palestinians.
    Is this historically correct? Well the Jews conquered the land of Israel… They took over from the Canaanites and other tribes who had lived there before but, instead of wiping them out, as some accounts would have it, the Jews completely absorbed those peoples. This is evidenced by the many pagan rites and rituals that were practiced in the land throughout the period of the two kingdoms. And so when the Assyrians and Babylonians came along, all they found was Jews because Canaanites and others all became part of the Jewish people. And so, in addition to Divine mandate we have the argument that we are the indigenous people of the land.

    Then, as the book of Kings shows, the Assyrians settled the land of Israel with all manners of Gentile peoples from southern Turkey, northern Syria, and Lebanon. These peoples converted to a rudimentary form of Judaism, which also permitted pagan rites, but over time it became more monotheistic.

    These people became known as Samaritans and they vied with the Jews for control of the land much as the newcomers we call Palestinians do today.

    Then the Greeks took over the land and settled it with Hellenized Syrians (not Arabs) and Egyptians (not Arabs). And so now we had Jews, Greeks, and Samaritans all living in the land.

    Then came the Romans who destroyed Jewish sovereignty but even after they did, the composition of the land stayed the same - Jews, Greeks, and Samaritans.

    Then the Roman Empire became Christian and they imposed Christianity on the empire. The entire Greek community, the majority of the Samaritans, and a few Jews converted to Christianity.

    Then came the Arabs (who pushed on from ARABIA) who took the land away from the Romans (Called Byzantine by this time.) and they imposed the Jizyah and Kharaj tax. This caused most of the Greeks and almost all of the remaining Samaritans (A tiny remnant has persisted to this day.) to convert to Islam and to intermarry with the Arab newcomers. The identity of these people switched from Greek to Arab. This happened for the Arab Christians too though they retained their Christianity. But the Jews did not see themselves as Arab because the element of Jewish nationhood is an integral part of our religion whilst Islam and Christianity are religions but not nations as well.

    Then the Arab Empire crumbled into separate sultanates that also crumbled and along came invaders of all types including the Mongols. But the Mongols were driven back by the Mamelukes who took over the land. Then the Seljuk’s who were conquered by the Crusaders conquered the Mamelukes. The Crusaders converted many Arabs to Christianity and though they decimated the Jewish community, small Jewish communities remained.
    Then the Ottomans who came to a ruined land torn apart by wars ousted the Crusaders and invasions and they set up a system of serfdom, which caused the Arab fellahin or peasants to sink into ever-greater debts. This caused deforestation to occur as peasants sought to pay debts and herds increased beyond the capacity of the land to support them. All this caused the topsoil to wash away. And the land became barren and denuded. Without watersheds, the water all flowed into the valleys and depressions creating swamps (There had always been some swamps but not THIS many.). The swamps bred typhus and malaria, which spread to the people and because of all forces the population of the land of Israel, from the 1500s to the 1830s declined.

    But the Jewish population did not because the Jews did not own any land and did not have to pay the terrible taxes. The Jews all lived in the larger towns where they were small shopkeepers and scholars and lived a meager life supported by money from throughout the Jewish Diaspora. In fact the Jewish community increased as there were successive waves of immigration such as the immigration of 300 French and English Rabbis in the 1200s, the immigration of refugees from Islamic persecutions in Morocco in the late 1200s, many exiles from Spain and Portugal in the 1500s, Yemenite Jews in the 1600s, Hassidic Jews from Poland in the 1700s, Mitnagdim Jews from Lithuania in the early 1800s, and smaller Sephardic movements at the same time.

    Then in the 1830s a war between Egypt and the Ottomans brought large numbers of Egyptian (now called Arabs after the upsurge of Islam from ARABIA in the 7th Century CE) soldiers to Palestine where they were given land. These Egyptians Arabs established many towns in the Galilee and the Judean Hills. Then Muslim Turks settled in Jaffa conducting business. The Ottomans brought in many thousands of Syrian Arabs and Lebanese (Christian and Arab) workers to build the railroads. Refugees from a failed revolution against France in Iraq, Muslim refugees from Russia, Kurds, and Bosnians settled in Israel too.

    Then came the Jewish returnees to their Patrimony "Israel" who employed the fellahin. Therefore, many tens of thousands of Arabs poured into Israel from Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt looking for work. This immigration continued throughout the British period unabated even as the British sharply restricted Jewish immigration.

    Then after the war of independence Jews poured in to their homeland that they had been attached to and had longed for throughout the ages and to which they were entitled by Divine right.

    All of this has been well documented in history... and some of my old posts...
    SO WHO ARE THE REAL PALESTINIANS? A hybrid mixture of Syrian, Lebanese, Iraqi, and Egyptian people with strong mixes of Kurds, Circassian, Algerian, Bosnians, and Arabian, as well as a bit of remnant old blood from the mixed Arab, Greek, and Samaritan? A mish mash of people with no language, identity, or culture of their own that has no historical ties apart from migrations, to this particular land, and certainly no religious ties? A people who can claim no divine deed?

    Or is it a people who have had a connection with the land, a yearning for the land and a love for the land for over 2,000 years? A people with Divine deed to the land? A people in whose very veins the blood of the land's aboriginal and other similar populations runs? And not just ANY people but the VERY people who gave the world democracy, justice, and monotheism and who liberated the human mind from the narrow confines of idolatry, a people who has been at the forefront of civilization and all liberating movements (as well as some not so liberating, but hey we all make mistakes don’t we?) in the history of the world?

    Which is it? WHO are the real Palestinians? WE ARE! THE JEWS ARE THE REAL PALESTINIANS AND ENTITLED TO THE ENTIRE LAND.

    The hybrids who we often refer to as Palestinians may stay and live with us if they agree to live by our laws and to be loyal citizens and if they do NOTHING to threaten the hegemony of the true Palestinians to Palestine. They may have complete freedom of movement, religion, economy, and all the benefits of living in the state of the true Palestinians. But any of them who choose to threaten the hegemony of the true Palestinians over Palestine may go elsewhere. Indeed, the true Palestinians have graciously provided for any hybrids that want to live in a hybrid state. It is called "Jordan", and as a tribute to the generosity of the true Palestinians it is a much larger piece of Palestine than the piece we keep for ourselves.(77% vs 23%)

    The true Palestinians is the ONLY people entitled to this land though. And it is only our generosity that keeps us from taking Jordan, which is also rightfully, ours.

    WE ARE THE TRUE PALESTINIANS. AND WE HAVE NOTHING TO APOLOGIZE FOR!

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
     
  4. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    HBendon, you have written a powerful and basically accurate article. Genuine Islamic scholars who actually believe what the Qur'an/Koran teaches actually believe in the restoration of all 13 of the lost tribes of Israel to the Holy Land.

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7665300/


    Qu'ran teaches that Jews must return to Israel in latter days.
    Most of us in the western democratic nations are terribly unaware of how differently Islamic Mystics and Sufi Moslems seem to view what the Qu'ran really teaches regarding the restoration of the Jewish people to the land of Israel in the latter days!


     
  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have read several intelligent articles on how to actually attain genuine peace between Israelis and Palestinians but I do consider that "God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land" is the best that I read so far because it takes into consideration basic scriptures from the Jewish Bible, the Qur'an as well as from the Christian scriptures!


    http://godspeaceplan.org/?goback=.gde_152776_member_208582728
    God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land

     
  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually, HBendon I have read a serious estimate that there may have been as many as 400,000 Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles, disciples of Cephas/Peter and the other disciples, living in the Roman province of Judaea at the time of the Bar Kochba Revolt.

    I already did the best that I could to elaborate on the profound implications of this statistic over on Linkedin:


    http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Gods...519c89e7eed9&trk=group_items_see_more-0-b-ttl
    God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land

    http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus/
    Why Don’t Jews Believe In Jesus?
     
  7. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    So what, HBendor. It is true that many peoples never had a nation of similar name to what they are called.

    But there WAS a Canaanite nation, and the Israeli Archaeologist Finkelstein has shown that the Israelites were an offshoot of that ancient nation. And Prof Oppenheim, a foremost Israeli geneticist has shown that the Palestinians and the more pure Jews are from the same ancestry. Some Palestinians even carry the famous Cohenic (priestly) Jewish gene. You have been shown all of this many times.

    Here is where you were shown the evidence of these experts less than a week ago ---yes, less than a week ago: http://www.politicalforum.com/latest-world-news/286165-legal-case-israel-7.html#post1062223698

    Isaiah 44:18 “They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand.”
     
  8. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    Again … So what, HBendor? It is true that many peoples never had a nation of similar name to what they are called.

    You have also been shown on half a dozen occasions that there were never the following nations in deep history, but that they are now perfectly legally constituted sovereign states. Examples are – Namibia, Tanzania, Australia, the United States of America, Canada, Italy, Argentina, Chile, Brazil.

    You never responded.

    And the reason is that the fact that such nations did not exist in the past is utterly irrelevant.

    So why do you insist of broadcasting your subjective opinion that, for some reason or another, there needs to have been a Palestinian state in the past for one to be valid now? There is no international law demanding this, HBendor. Walk it off. Zionists do not get special debating privileges.
     
  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hi Klipkap! You have hit upon a major point as to why the Rabbinic Jewish community of the Bar Kochba era might tend to be fearful of the level of growth experienced in the Messianic Jewish and Messianic Gentile community.

    Acts 21:20
    Acts 6:7
    The relationship between the Rabbinic Jewish community in many ways could be compared with the relationship between Orthodox Jews with followers of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov at this time period. Many Rabbinic Jews were pleased that the followers of Cephas/Peter were zealous regarding the keeping of the Mosaic laws....but the fact that the Messianics of the Bar Kochba era were NOT zealous regarding the setting up of a Jewish state and restored monarchy.....now that was considered a BIG PROBLEM!!!!!!!
     
  10. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe the best way to encourage genuine peace between Israeli Jews and Palestinians will be to show how this can benefit the USA. Florida is exceptionally vulnerable to the threat of rising ocean levels. The only way to rapidly counter this danger that I can think of is to invest heavily in turning deserts green. Every cubic meter of water added to the water table of Jordan, Australia, Morocco, or California will NOT be on top of Florida or the City of New Orleans!!!!!!

    This message posted to an Islamic group February 27, 2012 (that has since then been hidden or deleted), has the potential to utterly transform the relationship between the Islamic world and the western democratic nations!

    .facebook.com/pages/scientific-miracles-of-islam/136917379667127

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/west...rrency-unit-to-save-coastal-c/373261199364486
    Proposal for the creation of a Quebec provincial currency unit to save coastal communities from threat of rising ocean levels.

    In my opinion it is going to cost trillions of dollars to do what needs to be done to protect towns like Truro, and Antigonish, Nova Scotia from the consequences of the cracking and sliding of a large part of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet and the land based Greenland Ice Pack into the ocean.

    The province of Alberta attempted to create its own provincial currency unit during The Great Depression but enormous pressure was exerted to ensure that their experiment in monetary policy was unsuccessful.

    /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_Social_Credit_Party

    The province of Quebec seems to be in much better position to create its own provincial currency unit without facing the massive backlash from the financial community and federal government that Alberta experienced.

    Dr. James Hansen has stated that the last time that global temperatures rose by three degrees ocean levels rose by 25 meters over four centuries. Canada and the world are NOT yet prepared for ocean rise of one meter every twenty years.

    Nearly one hundred million people in Bangladesh alone will become climate change refugees in the event of merely a one meter rise in ocean levels!
     
  11. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Isaiah 44 : 18 should be attributed to those who try the impossible to patch up things and to give legitimacy to squatters, rabble rousers, pedophiles, thieves, rapists, gypsies of every form and purpose... But you personally do not care because it is not in your backyard...
     
  12. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    HBendor, what do you personally think of the case that perhaps Miss Anne Frank has been sent back to the earth, I assume to help all of us to rethink our belief that warfare is worth the risk???

    http://www.iisis.net/index.php?page=semkiw-anne-frank-barbro-karlen-reincarnation-past-life

    (Walter Semkiw M. D.)

    The relevance of this case is that if the G-d of Abraham sends angels to play the role of Jews in one lifetime....a Christian in another life time and perhaps a Moslem or Buddhist in another life time then the way in which we pray for people from another ethnic or religious group can be profoundly altered!

    The Baal Shem Tov knew that the way that he prayed can profoundly alter what goes on in fifth, sixty, seventh and eighth dimensional space - time!

    http://www.pinenet.com/~rooster/stories.html#martyrs
    (Rabbi Yonassan Gershom, Jewish Tales of Reincarnation -- chosen by the Jewish Book Club in November 1999!)
     
  13. Moishe3rd

    Moishe3rd New Member

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    As best as I can understand between the arguments here is that the premise of this thread is that the present day Arabs called Palestinians are the theoretical descendants of Jews who remained in the Kingdom of Israel after the Roman Destruction - After bar Kochba's Revolt.
    The problem with this theory is that all the serious historians that I have read; including more ancient historians; including Islamic and Arab historians; and including all modern historians, claim that the Kingdom of Israel was depopulated almost completely of its roughly 3 million inhabitants - most of whom would have been "rural" in any case anyway... 400,000 Jews in the Kingdom of Israel after the Roman Destruction, would have been a huge number that would have been noticed by someone at some point in time.
    I don't understand where the people quoted could possibly come up with that number.
    What is their source material? Who else agrees with those kind of figures?
     
  14. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    Was that meant to be a rebuttal of my thesis that many sovereign nations exist without a national identity in deep histroy?

    If so .... **CLANG**

    If not ..... yet another HBendor Metapost [Folks, he is out to set a record!!]

    HB ..... BS will never beat real facts. Walk it off.
     
  15. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    Welcome back Moishe III

    In answer to your post: No. It was not at all depopulated. What is indeed interesting, Moshe, is that it is difficult to find good accounts of 'Israel' after the Bar Kochba revolt. It is almost as if a curtain had been lowered over the region. I would appreciate any good verifiable accounts for the period between 135 AD and the Islamification of Israel in the 6th Century.

    Here are some of the unsatisfactorily threadbare data that I have in my archive:

    http://people.usd.edu/~clehmann/erp/Palestine/history.htm#135-337
    But then a new era was ushered in - the Byzantine:

    So guess what happened ....
     
  16. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Active Member

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    Israeli Jews are coverts to Judaism, they are not Semites so whether or not the Tribes are Myth or not doesn't matter .The Israeli Jews were in the main Turks and Eastern European, European to begin with, and now others too, who have been duped into leaving their Lands and going to Israel, some have been treated wickedly poor poor things.

    Palestinians are Semites. .
     
    Art_Allm and (deleted member) like this.
  17. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Active Member

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    Not I think coverts though. Semites are Arabs.
     
  18. Moishe3rd

    Moishe3rd New Member

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    Okay.
    So, there are many and varied sources that estimate how many Jews survived the Roman Destruction and lived in the former Kingdom of Israel after 135 CE.
    However, a quick perusal of various sources and statistics give a possible maximum of about 50,000 Jews and a possible minimum of about 10,000. Nowhere could I find any figure remotely approaching 400,000.
    And that minimal population pool could not possibly account for this idea that the Arabs called Palestinians are descended from those surviving Jews.
    It is a relatively reasonable argument to suppose that, of the Jews living in the conquered territories of Islam's new empire, many, many of them converted to Islam and that a significant percentage of those that consider themselves Arab/ Muslim today do, indeed, have "Jewish blood."
    However, that is also true of much of the planet Earth, including China, Africa, and Europe. The Jews did, indeed, travel to the far corners of the Earth and they did assimilate in large numbers - and still do to this day.
    According to historian Paul Johnson, the Census of the Roman Empire under Claudius recognized about 8 million Jews in the world of which 6,944,000 lived within the Empire.
    After the Muslim conquests, I recall a figure of about 3 million Jews in the same area of the former Roman Empire.
    According to my recollection, it was that about 3 to 4 million Jews had assimilated into Islam and Christianity by that time.
     
  19. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am quoting Sid Roth from his book The Incomplete Church, Chapter 7, page 64, 65)

    http://sheekh-3arb.org/library/books/up_coll/The_Incom_Ch.pdf
     
  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If the Romans almost completely depopulated the Roman province of Judaea, who would grow grain and olive oil to pay taxes to Rome?

    Did Rome tend to NOT kick people out of an area who DID NOT PARTICIPATE in a revolt against their rule????

    Can you think of several logical reasons as to why Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles might be somewhat skeptical regarding Rabbi Akiva's claim that Simon Bar Kochba was the Moshiach?

    http://thesanhedrin.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=807
    A tragic misunderstanding
    Times UK by James Hider:

    ....
     

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