Are the US Navy Carrier Fleets Obsolete?

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Llewellyn Moss, Oct 15, 2017.

  1. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    And so irradiated that everyone that everyone onboard would be dead or dying and the vessel would have to scuttled.
     
  2. Bear513

    Bear513 Banned

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    What's the point of a nuclear torpedo , it seems like a suicide mission to me.
     
  3. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The second test (Baker) was below the surface.

    So yes, a nuclear tipped torpedo could sink an aircraft carrier.

    But to the best of my knowledge all submarine nuclear tipped torpedoes in the USN and the Russian navies have been pulled from service and dismantled.

    There's a book written by a former Soviet submarine captain who during the Cuban naval blockade during the Cuban missile crises who was able to get with in torpedo range undetected of a USN carrier battle group. His torpedoes had nuclear warheads. In the book he mentions he was concerned if the Kremlin knew if they ordered his sub to attack the USN aircraft carrier that the nuclear torpedo explosion would destroy his sub.

    Now we still have nuclear tipped 12.75" ASW torpedoes still in storage.
     
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  4. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sounds like you never been aboard a battleship.

    Except for the 5" gun gunners mates in the 5"/38 gun turrets, just about all of the ships crew are protected by 12" or more of armor.

    [​IMG]
    Iowa class BB

    https://danger.mongabay.com/survival/afm/23-01.html

    https://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/radiation/health-effects/radiation-basics.html

    Safety in steel: Hanford workers' health monitored in room made from battleship -> http://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/local/hanford/article32184597.html



    [​IMG]
     
  5. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    That armor only cover parts of the ship - the citadel, the CT, the turrets. All of that bow, that houses the crew quarters, is largely unarmored. I think radiation could still affect the crew - but for that, rads suits may suffice for a while.
     
  6. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    And the ship was so irradiated, even a tiny crack in any bulkhead or door would have been enough to let through a lethal dose. The entire crew would effectively be entombed inside a blinded, immobile, steel coffin.
     
  7. Kash

    Kash Member

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    There are no unsinkable ships.
    Iowa does not carry armor that cannot be penetrated by a modern tank round. Supersonic ship killers have a crude cumulative warhead designed to throw the reaction mass in general direction. If someone would want to build a cumulative warhead for Granit, designed strictly for penetration purposes, 0.8m * 8 (analogue to modern tank Cumulative AP), this would give us a 6.4 meters of penetration of tank armor. Back in 1970s you should expect 0.8m *6 = 4.8m penetration (Granit is 40 years old).
    Tank armor is much more complex and does not precisely match naval armor, but it gives some understanding of different understanding of term “armored” back in 1940ies and now.


    All modern navies including US consider it to be obsolete.


    Over horizon targeting is normal for networked battlefield. Ship recognition based on preloaded radar image is known for more than 40 years. The question of Granit or Circon penetrating the AA screen stands tall because it is unanswered, that is why we are discussing a penetration by a single missile.
    There is no questions in case of missile spam. If two forces, of equal value, meet in the middle of the ocean. One of which is missile caring, another is BB centered, there are no questions who will win. At the moment there is no valid defense against missile spam, it does not matter if we are talking about Tomahawks, Harpoon, Granit, Onix, Yahont, whatever.


    What we are talking about? N Korea sub is likely to target a BB, because it is great honor to inflict so much damage before been sunk by destroyer screen.
    A Russian or Chineese, are not going to target a BB. BB is harmless, easy to kill, a great burden to the enemy, makes enemy group predictable and loud. On the other hand, Ticonderoga and Burkes are deadly.


    Russians brought the concept of missile barge to higher level than US design school. In equal engagement they launch more attack and more defensive missiles. They ether win or both sides go down.
     
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  8. Kash

    Kash Member

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    It is possible if he did not know about the tests done. Tests show that a sub hull shows excellent survivability to distant underwater nuke. Designed for pressure. But I think test results wear classified at that time.
     
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  9. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good question.

    This was during the early 1960's during the Cuban Missile Crises and don't remember exactly what class the submarine was, Whiskey, Tango or Foxtrot but it was diesel electric and of the 1950's design.

    A sub can withstand a lot of over pressure but a sub is already under a lot of pressure when submerged.

    From what I understand, with an underwater explosion there's a over pressure (shock wave) that is created then a gas bubble which is what sinks surface ships or submarines.






    http://homepages.abdn.ac.uk/h.tan/pages/teaching/explosion-engineering/Underwater-I.pdf

    http://www.am.chalmers.se/~thab/IMAC/2010/PDFs/Papers/s38p003.pdf
     
  10. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Actually there were four or five Soviet diesel submarine commanders who at one time or the other intended to launch a nuclear torpedo at U.S. ships. Aboard each one, the commander, weapons officer, and political officer all had to give their consent before launching the weapon.

    IIRC it went like this:

    Each one prepared to launch their nuclear torpedo after repeated massive depth charging by U.S. destroyers. The submarines had orders to launch if they were in danger of being destroyed. American destroyers were under orders to only launch no more than 6 depth charges but in reality frequently launched dozens.

    1) One Soviet submarine prepared to launch its nuclear torpedo but the submarine intercepted and listened in to an open air transmission from President Kennedy ordering the destroyer to stay in contact with the submarine but clearly NOT ordering an attack. The Soviet submarine later surfaced and the destroyer crew sent them some fresh vegetables and bread on a messenger line.

    2) One Soviet submarine prepared to launch its nuclear torpedo and all three required officers agreed. But the political officer passed out from the heat before his consent could be recorded and by the time he regained consciousness the danger had passed.

    3) One Soviet submarine prepared to launch its nuclear torpedo but the political officer refused to agree to the launch.

    Don't remember what happened to the other two. I think one suffered an engine failure and had to be towed back to the U.S.S.R.
     
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  11. Kash

    Kash Member

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    Effects of shallow (50m) underwater nuke of 100KT

    1. The bubble, it is expanding itself at a speed of 1km/s, roughly till it is 30m radius.
    2. The shock wave departs the bubble. This is the major underwater shockwave, the main damage dealer, it carries 50% of energy of nuclear explosion. The bubble carries the rest 50%, in 15 sec it could grow till roughly 700m diameter (but the depth is insufficient).
    3. The shock wave reaches the surface, the highest layer of water jumps up at a speed of 700m/s. The first aerial shock wave is born. The bubble is still 20m below the surface.
    4. 200m-600m radius. The water pushed by bubble reaches the surface, the bubble reaches the surface, the first spectacular explosion, second aerial shockwave. The water is thrown upwards at a speed of 300-500m/s, the ships within the radius are shred to pieces, their parts are found in kilometers from the explosion.
    5. The explosive products reach the surface (reaction mass), the radius grows from 600m to 1000m. The third and the most deadly aerial shockwave is born. It is fastest, it consumes the first two aerial shockwaves. It carries same amount of energy as a 20KT aerial detonation shockwave.
    6. 1000m, all ships drown except some types in certain conditions, those are beyond repair. All subs destroyed.
    7. 1500m, majority of ships are immobilized.
    8. 2250m, light damage to ships.
    9. 2.5 minutes after explosion in 3000m radius. Total radiation is 100% deadly to exposed human.
    10. 5 minutes, 6km, radiation is past immediate death and dissipating

    So the effects to sub (if it is further than 1000m) – underwater shockwave.
    What effects the ships – underwater shockwave, shockwave reflected from the surface, aerial shockwave, radiation fallout.

    The sub is an imaginary steel tube. The sides, the upper and floor part have equal thickness and strength. The ship, on the other hand, is composed of steel plates hanging on ribs and keel. If the upper deck is not strong enough (like the merchant that has an open upper deck, like a container ship), than when it is pressured from one or both sides by a underwater shockwave, it should implode inside. It is not the pressure that’s killing you, it’s the difference in pressures and how fast they happen :)

    So the sub should have much better survivability, theoretically, it does not really have to dive deep after a launch.

    Don’t hit me too hard on above in case of mistakes, personally I am into WW2 pistol engine aviation :)
     
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  12. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    For a second, let’s ignore the obvious damage that can be caused by the shockwave. The millions of tons of highly irradiated water and steam that will fall over a huge radius will effectively mean any ship exposed to it, even if it survives the shockwave just fine, is going to have to be scuttled.
     
  13. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    Russia and China would be woefully inadequate in defending their strategic assets and population from the US naval power.
     
  14. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    Anyway, bottom line. As incompetent as our government can be at times, I can assure that the Navy is well prepared and organized when it come to issues pertaining to radiation.

    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread675414/pg1
     
  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    What electronics?

    Did you see the reboot of Battlestar Galactica at all?

    This is pretty much what they were patterned after in the series, these old Battleships.

    They still used analog computers that used gears to plot targets!

    These things had very little in "electronics", they were largely still the exact same ships as when launched during WWII. That is why when they returned to service in the 1980's, they had to pay big bucks to some old Korean and Vietnam era vets to come in and show them how the fire control worked. Literally it was not like anything the Navy had used for 30 years. And that is still the "electronics" they have in place now.

    Please, research, eh? There is really no such thing as a "Cold War era Battleship", that is because the Iowa class predate the Cold War, and they are the last of that general class.

    They also predate the microprocessor, and even the transistor. They are from an era where the vacuum tube was state of the art, and such items were considered to fragile for use in critical systems in a warship.

    https://arstechnica.com/information...-mechanical-analog-computers-ruled-the-waves/
     
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  16. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    The only time I think you would see nuclear weapons used against naval vessels would be

    1) general nuclear war has already broken out
    2) A SSBN has been detected attempting to launch a nuclear missile (during an ongoing conflict already) and an attacking vessel doesn't have time to get closer for a conventional attack.
     
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  17. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    How many of those sprayers you think are still functioning after a nuclear shockwave hits them?
     
  18. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    So the Iowa's that existed in 1945 are the same Iowa's that existed in 1989 with no modifications or changes to them at all?
     
  19. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I can back up what he said about the fire control computer for the 16 inch gun targeting. The "computer" they used for that throughout all the times the Iowa's were brought back into service was still an old style mechanical computer for the simple reason that more advanced electronics could not aim the guns any more accurately.
     
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  20. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    And with no radios, no radar, the sights busted, and the crew that would be manning the observation positions blinded and dying from radiation poisoning, all that accuracy won't mean dick because all the shooting will be blind.
     
  21. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Why are we talking about use of nuclear weapons again?
     
  22. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    Mushroom said:
    What electronics?

    Did you see the reboot of Battlestar Galactica at all?

    This is pretty much what they were patterned after in the series, these old Battleships.

    They still used analog computers that used gears to plot targets!

    These things had very little in "electronics", they were largely still the exact same ships as when launched during WWII. That is why when they returned to service in the 1980's, they had to pay big bucks to some old Korean and Vietnam era vets to come in and show them how the fire control worked. Literally it was not like anything the Navy had used for 30 years. And that is still the "electronics" they have in place now.

    Please, research, eh? There is really no such thing as a "Cold War era Battleship", that is because the Iowa class predate the Cold War, and they are the last of that general class.

    They also predate the microprocessor, and even the transistor. They are from an era where the vacuum tube was state of the art, and such items were considered to fragile for use in critical systems in a warship.
    No, don't sealion.

    Read it again, please, Questerr .
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  23. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All of them.

    The shock wave is the overpreasure that is measured in "pounds per square inch" (PSI).

    We are talking about nuclear torpedoes and an underwater nuclear detonation, not an air burst. But at ten miles a 1 MGT nuclear air burst the over pressure (blast wave) is at 2 PSI. For the layman, wind speed of 70 MPH.

    All explosions of all kinds produces over pressure.

    An Iowa class battleship can withstand twice as much over pressure than a Arliehg Burke or a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. It has too, that's what all of the armor plating and wood teak deck is for.

    Why do warships with 6 inch and larger guns have wooden decks like teak ? To help absorb the over pressure caused from firing its guns.

    [​IMG]

    USS Iowa BB-61 firing a 15 gun broadside 1984.

    A 15 gun broadside is 9 - 16" guns and 6 - 5" guns firing.

    The center of the muzzle blast is about 85 feet from the side of the ship. The visible part of the muzzle blast sphere is about 500 feet in diameter. As best we could calculate, the visible part of the sphere has a maximum width of about 600 feet when in full bloom. A single gun firing causes a depression in the ocean about 17 or 18 feet deep and about 600 feet wide in the ocean. The sphere is much larger in diameter than that but you only get to see a small portion of the bottom of the sphere in the ocean. This depression in the ocean from a single gun displaces about 11,000 tons of water.

    When a 3 gun salvo is fired, the depression in the ocean is over 25 feet deep and the diameter of the sphere you get to see in the ocean is about 1,000 feet. A full broadside from the ship displaces about 100,000 tons of water, almost twice the weight of the ship. The displaced water pushes against the side of the ship and pushes it side-wise a bit.

    It was interesting to me how the ship reacted to being pushed side-wise. How much the ship is pushed side-wise depends on the ship's speed. When doing shore bombardment the ship's speed is about 5 kts and the ship moves uniformly side-wise from bow to stern about 9 feet. At faster speeds the bow is held more firmly and the bow does not push side-wise. The bow wake, however, reduces the water pressure along the sides of the ship. The reduced pressure along the ships sides allows the rudders to more easily turn the ship by causing the fantail to move side-wise through the water thereby turning the ship.

    The faster the ship is going, the lower the water pressure against the hull and the faster the ship will turn. The same is true of the muzzle blast and water pushing against the side of the ship. The fantail is pushed away from the direction of gun fire and the ship turns in the direction of the gun fire.

    In the above picture the ship is traveling at about 10 or 12 kts. She is in a starboard turn of about 3 or 4 degrees towards the line of fire. If you will look at the ships wake you will see the line of the bow wake to starboard is some distance from the ship. The bow wake to port is against the side of the ship.

    I used to love to watch this. When I could get away from my fire control duties I would go to the pilothouse and take the wheel. There you can watch the compass and see the ship turn when the guns are fired. I was always impressed by this then and I'm still impressed today. BB's, cruisers and DD's all move side-wise the same amount as described above. That is because the ships are all relative in weight, length, beam and size of armament, (size of guns).

    The ship is 888 feet long and 108 feet wide...
    http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/AMMUNITION/USS-IOWA-BROADSIDE-FIREING.html
     
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  24. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We are dealing in meters...( 1609 meters = 1 mile or 1,760 yards )

    Most pictures you see of a Carrier Battle Group (CBG) or the smaller Carrier Strike Group (CSG) are PR photo ops. The ships are all bunched up for the photo.

    Warships don't operate close to other ships in the squadron or group, they need large areas to maneuver in combat. Below is a photo of the USS Enterprise CBG consisting of 1 Nimitz class carrier, 2 Ticonderoga class cruisers and 10 or 12 Burke's destroyers and Oliver Perry frigates.

    [​IMG]
    Video -> https://www.videoblocks.com/video/enterprise-aircraft-carrier-strike-group-formation-wt4voq1/

    As you can see, you only see one of the Enterprise escorts way off in the distance.

    A enemy nuclear torpedo could put the carrier out of business but it's escorts would likely be a few thousand meters from the center of the blast.
     
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  25. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's a pretty good article you linked too Mushroom.
    https://arstechnica.com/information...-mechanical-analog-computers-ruled-the-waves/
     
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