Ask your difficult questions about religion here

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by kazenatsu, May 18, 2019.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    11,202
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Your argument now becomes that God must be bad because Christians who believe in an afterlife are wrong.
    It's a circular argument.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  2. rahl

    rahl Banned

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    62,508
    Likes Received:
    7,651
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, that’s a strawman. You are worse at logic, than you are at debating.
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    11,202
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My argument is that God is in a very different position to do that killing than you are, for a variety of different reasons.

    We all know that killing is not necessarily murder, but it depends very much on the specific situation.
     
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    11,202
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If that's a straw man then what was your original point about saying that death is death?

    It seems you implied that God is guilty of murder for causing physical death, even if he knew (with complete certainty) it would not cause actual death and that person would live in the afterlife.
    Not only that but he could revive them to physical life again.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  5. rahl

    rahl Banned

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    62,508
    Likes Received:
    7,651
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, which is special pleading.

    God killing an unborn child and the mother doing it is exactly the same.
     
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    11,202
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The mother is doing it from a different knowledge base than God is doing it from.

    The reasons for doing something matter as much as the actual act.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  7. rahl

    rahl Banned

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    62,508
    Likes Received:
    7,651
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My point was perfectly clear. Physical death, is death.

    Physical death, is death. By definition.
    Irrelevant
     
  8. rahl

    rahl Banned

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    62,508
    Likes Received:
    7,651
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No she isn’t.

    Killing an innocent is the same, no matter what the reason.
     
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    11,202
    Trophy Points:
    113
    rahl, you are saying that God is guilty of murder just because he kills, even if he knows with complete certainty that person will still be living on in the afterlife, and even if he has the capability to give them another physical life again.

    It doesn't seem to be the strongest argument.

    Then there's the fact that government has the right to do things that individual people do not.
    Which we've already discussed.

    Hmm, a wise, just, and omnipotent ruler who created everything. Like he doesn't have the right to be government.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  10. rahl

    rahl Banned

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    62,508
    Likes Received:
    7,651
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Correct. As god would have murdered said person.

    Because it conflicts with your religious beliefs of an omnibenevolent god.

    And to which you also lost.

    The US government was created by its citizenry. It continues to exist, with the consent of its citizenry.

    Governments are entirely irrelevant your god, or the discussion pertaining to your god.
     
  11. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    28,370
    Likes Received:
    9,297
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    And...IF he thinks hard enough he is not really killing anyone IF he decides hes not. He can do anything to anyone anywhere just by thinking it IF he wants to so he does not kill unless he tells us he has with his super telepathy magic payer phone.
     
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    11,202
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I still think that's kind of a semantic argument, and that there's a big difference.
     
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    11,202
    Trophy Points:
    113
    referring to your ridiculous claim that an individual has the right to do everything that a government does.

    wasn't even worth arguing with or going down that road
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    11,202
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In other words, rights originate from the local majority that happens to be within a man-made political construct (nation-state) ?

    Doesn't seem very deep rooted philosophically to me.

    My point was you were applying standards to God that you would not apply to your own government.

    Kind of a double standard, and logically inconsistent.
    If you accept government needs to do something, you should generally be in acceptance if God operates that same way.

    If government can set it's own arbitrary rules, aim a gun at you, and use threat of death to kidnap you, then you should have no problem with God setting some rules.

    Or does the issue come down to you not getting to vote for God?
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  15. rahl

    rahl Banned

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    62,508
    Likes Received:
    7,651
    Trophy Points:
    113
    But we’ve established there is no difference.
     
  16. rahl

    rahl Banned

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    62,508
    Likes Received:
    7,651
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Because you were shown to be in error.
     
  17. rahl

    rahl Banned

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    62,508
    Likes Received:
    7,651
    Trophy Points:
    113
    All rights are man made.


    Because the two aren’t comparable.

    Government and your god are in no way comparable.

    Already refuted this.

    The issue comes down to you being unable to support your position, and resorting to special pleading. This forces you to deflect. I won’t let you do that.
     
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    11,202
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That statement so stupid it is like you are trying to troll.
     
  19. rahl

    rahl Banned

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    62,508
    Likes Received:
    7,651
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You were shown to be in error. You know this. You are desperately trying to deflect away from addressing the fact that your position on your god is special pleading. You know this too.
     
  20. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages:
    31,455
    Likes Received:
    34,888
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That sort of blows holes in the claim that God "sacrificed" his Son. He knew his Son would still live, so it wasn't a sacrifice.
     
  21. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    11,202
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's another very good issue you've brought up.

    Think about all the pain and suffering he went through though.
     
  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    11,202
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If someone has an illegal gun, are you legally permitted to point a gun towards them and arrest them, yes or no?
    If the answer is no (which it is) then you are wrong about this whole line of reasoning.

    There are all sorts of crimes, some of them considered serious, which you are not legally permitted to effect a citizen's arrest.

    That is SOOO obvious, that's why I called your argument stupid.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  23. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,915
    Likes Received:
    2,152
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    When casting a circle, typically we are taught to walk it clockwise, which is also the way that water spins when draining. The question is when in the southern hemisphere, where the corriolis (sp?) effect causes to swirl counter clockwise, should the circle be alone cast counter clockwise? Is the direction we walk a product of natural forces, or is it just a method of focusing our.mind and thus direction is actually irrelevant?
     
  24. rahl

    rahl Banned

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    62,508
    Likes Received:
    7,651
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is a deflection, with no relevance to what we are discussing. I won’t let you do that.
     
  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    11,202
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What we were discussing was whether you as an individual always have the right to do what the government can do.
    You claimed yes, and began stubbornly defending that.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019

Share This Page