Atheism And Ceasing To Exist Oblivion.

On Humans-Cease-To-Exist Atheism there is no ultimate difference in the end
of a human being and a cockroach, in that both have the same ultimate destiny,
namely oblivion as in ceasing to exist.

Some atheists say that humans cease to exist after death.

Other atheists say that they do not know if humans cease to exist after death,
that there may be an afterlife.
`
The following thoughts are a response directed ONLY to those atheists that say
humans DO cease to exist after death.

That which ceases to exist has no ultimate worth and value. Nothing cannot be
valuable.

On Cease-To-Exist Atheism humans have the same identical ultimate worth and
value as does a cockroach, namely oblivion as in ceasing to exist.

This cannot be denied. It is factually true.

Please note the key word in the above statements, the key word
is ultimate.

If you ignore this word ultimate, then you do not have my position.

How so?

Because I gladly admit that you have present worth and value to
your own self in your own mind and feelings.

But on Cease-To-Exist Atheism you have no ultimate worth and value
because you cease to exist and that which ceases to exist has no ultimate
worth and value.

Nothing cannot be valuable.

On Cease-To-Exist Atheism you eventually cease to exist and that which has
ceased to exist has become a nothing.

Again you do have worth and value in the present to your
own self in your own mind and in your own feelings.
`
And you do have present worth and value to your family and to your friends.
`
But on Cease-To-Exist Atheism you have no ultimate worth and value.

Ultimate definition: "being or happening at the end of a process"

On Cease-To-Exist Atheism you will cease to exist at the end of the process of
your life..

Therefore on Cease-To-Exist Atheism you have the identical ultimate end as
does a cockroach, namely ceasing to exist as in oblivion.

Therefore on Cease-To-Exist Atheism you have, like the cockroach, no ultimate
worth and value.

That which no longer exists is not worth anything.

Its utterly impossible for nothing to be valuable.

And on Cease-To-Exist Atheism, you end up ultimately in oblivion, as in nothing.

 

One big difference between cockroaches and humans is humans suffer a lot more pain than a cockoach being squished by a shoe. Humans can suffer pain from dying for many, many years while for a cockroach it's over fairly quickly.

 

Correct sad but true, did you have a point?

 

Is that free verse or were you belaboring the point?
"you end up ultimately in oblivion, as in nothing" and the godly can't bear the thought. Quite the selling point.

 

So the question becomes why have you placed so much emphasis on this "ultimate" value? If the heat death of the universe is the ultimate end of all beings, isn't the very notion of "ultimate" value a basically meaningless measure?

 

Why do you need eternal existence in order to feel value for your existence? You are simply projecting your insecurities onto others.

If anything, the thought of my ultimate mortality has taught me to value things beyond my own myopic self-interest in a way that the belief in eternal life never could.

 

I suspect for any human it it impossible to really conceptualize ceasing to be. No matter how hard you might try you still are thinking about it. You can think about analogous experiences, I.e., being unconscious if knocked unconscious, under anesthesia, etc., but you can’t experience it and know what it will be when you cease to be.
When I was once asked what I thought being dead would be like, I answered, I suspect it will be the same as before my birth and my initial awareness of existing. Before that an eternity passed before I could blink an eye, and if, I existed before, nothing of that carried into this existence. So, why would I expect anything different of the before, for the after?

 

You are essentially correct. In the atheistic world-view there is no evidence of objective value. There is also no evidence of objective worth, objective right, objective wrong, objective morals, or objective rights. We are just animals with higher intelligence and our existence eventually gets snuffed out and our corpses get used to build more life. Personally I don't see any evidence of objective morality or value and I don't see how God existing somehow means objective morality exists when it couldn't without him.

However we do have emotions and have the capability of feeling happiness and pleasure which feels good so why not life for that? Or not, but its your loss. So we can find subjective emotional value in things simply because they make us feel good. Since life is short, we just enjoy it while it lasts.

 

Atheists have as much claim to ‘truth’ as do theists; the evidence for either point of view provides the same level of certainty of knowledge. Everything might just be a product of my mind and cease to exist when I do..... so, keep me safe.

 

Yup. "Nothing" equals nothing. The non-existence of a cockroach is no different than the non-existence of a person or a god or a devil.

 

matter/energy, is destroyed, upon death, and transforms to nothing how? Atheist physics? Anyone have that conversion handy?

 

"Why should I fear death? I was dead for a thousand eternities before I was born and it never inconvenienced me in the slightest. " Mark Twain

 

I think this idea goes back at least as far as the Epicureans in ancient Greece, and it is an interesting concept. I think it gets to the heart of he issue: that people primarily fear "oblivion" because, paradoxically, they think they will "experience" it in some way.

 

It may also be why most Christians say they are "god fearing". I know several people who are very VERY Christian and not ONE of them, I believe, REALLY thinks he is going to heaven after he dies

 

I reworked this OP and made it better.


Atheism And Ceasing To Exist Oblivion.
By JAG

When you die, is that the end of you?
Or do you continue to live on and on somewhere after you die?

Atheists answer those questions as follows:

Some atheists say they do not know if humans cease to
exist after death, that there may be an afterlife.

Many other atheists say that humans DO cease to exist after
death. The following remarks are addressed to those atheists
who we can correctly label "Humans-Cease-To-Exist-Atheists."

Cockroaches . . .

On Humans-Cease-To-Exist Atheism there is no ultimate difference
in the end of a human being and a cockroach, in that both have the
same ultimate destiny, namely oblivion as in ceasing to exist. This is
a very sad position to hold and believe.

House plants . . .

On Humans-Cease-To-Exist Atheism there is no ultimate difference
in the end of a human being and a house plant, in that both have the
same ultimate destiny, namely oblivion as in ceasing to exist. The same
very sad thought.

Question for Humans-Cease-To-Exist-Atheists: How does it make
you feel to believe that you have no more ultimate worth and value
than a house plant and a cockroach?

Or dead critters smashed in road kills . . . .
{they cease to exist too }

Again, that which ceases to exist has no ultimate worth and value.
Nothing cannot be valuable. Cockroaches and house plants die and
cease to exist. They cease to be valuable. They become trash to be
collected and discarded.

Get set for some repetition . . . .

On Cease-To-Exist Atheism you eventually cease to exist and that
which has ceased to exist has become a zero. Atheists do have
worth and value in the present to their own selves and in their
own mind and in their own feelings. And they do have present
worth and value to their family and to their friends. However on
Cease-To-Exist Atheism atheists have no ultimate worth and
value because they ultimately become nothing. Zero. 0.0000

Atheists can make valuable contributions to humanity and they can
leave behind that value, for example if an atheist finds a cure for a
disease -- but the atheist himself, on his atheism, has no ultimate
worth and value because on atheism he ceases to exist and that
which has ceased to exist has become a zero 0000000 and a zero
is not valuable. He ONCE WAS valuable --- but now that he has,
on atheism, become a zero, he is no longer valuable.

Ultimate definition: "being or happening at the end of a process."
On Cease-To-Exist Atheism atheists will cease to exist at the end
of the process of their lives.

That which no longer exists is not worth anything.
Its utterly impossible for nothing to be valuable.
And on Cease-To-Exist Atheism, they end up
ultimately in oblivion, as in nothing. Zero.

Why do I keep repeating this?
Because repetition is the mother of learning.
And because , , , ,

This is very sad. Atheism is pure sadness.

No future.

No hope.

No more love. No more music. No more good movies.
No more friends. No more satisfying relationships.
No more beauty. No more sunsets to enjoy. No more
good food to enjoy. No more beautiful images to enjoy.
Name one, just one, good thing about ceasing to exist.
Name it:
{1} _________________

Contrast Christendom's great doctrines of Eternal Life.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16

"My sheep listen to my voice, I know them, and they follow me, I give them
eternal life and they shall never perish." John 10:27-28

JAG

 

Very interesting! You seem to be presenting your personal and subjective feeling of sadness as some sort of "logic" to "prove" something about atheism. How sad.

 

Then weep.
And weep deeply.

JAG

PS
Glad you found it interesting.

PSS
By the way,
There is no such thing as an atheist.
(see the bolded red below)

ALL men KNOW there is a God that created them.

I have strong Biblical reasons for believing this to be true.

Here they are , , ,

Romans 1:19-20
Romans 1:19-20 says "since what may be known about
God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to
them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible
qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have
been clearly seen, being understood from what has
been made, so that people are without excuse."

Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20
{1) There is information that can be known about God.
{2} This information is plain to men.
{3} God Himself has made it plain to them.
{4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.
{5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen
{6} All this in understood from what God created.
{7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

Romans 1:19-20 is the germ principle of the Teleological Argument
for the existence of God -- the argument from the Intelligent Design
of the Human Person, the Earth-Sun-Moon-Stars, and the Universe.

Psalm 19:1-4 , , ,
Psalm 19:1-4 says , , ,
"The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

Note the particulars in Psalm 19:1-4
{1} The Heavens declare God's glory.
{2} The skies above proclaim His works
{3} Day after day they speak of God's creative work
{4} Night after night they reveal God's works
{5} They use no literal word but their voice goes out worldwide
{6} Therefore all men KNOW there is a God

Just because some men claim they lack belief in the existence
of God does not mean that they actually DO lack belief in the
existence of God. On Christian lights, God, in Romans, and in
other Bible verses, says there is no such thing as an atheist.
As a Christian I have a clear choice:
{1} I can believe what God says
{2} I can believe what mere men claim to be true.

I choose to believe {1}
{see list of those 5 Bible references below}

Romans 1:18
Romans 1:18 says that humans "suppress the truth." Atheists
are part of humanity, so Romans 1:18 applies to them also.

Romans 2:15 , , ,
Romans 2:15 says the requirements of the Laws of God are
"written on their hearts." So all men know there is a God that
created them.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 , , ,
Ecclesiastes 3:11 says , , ,
"He has also set eternity in the human heart"

Five Biblical References , , ,
These Bible verses clearly teach there is no such thing
as an atheist.
Romans 1:18-20
Romans 1:18
Romans 2:15
Psalm 19:1-4
Ecclesiastes 3:11

[]

 

One more point.
My view:
You read the piece (or glanced over it)
You did not like what you read (or glanced over)
So you made your comment ~ which is not a rebuttal of the proposition
of the piece you read ~~ because there is no possible rebuttal because . . .
what my piece says is the truth.
The TRUTH.

Best.

JAG

 

How do you know? Maybe there is a cockroach heaven and a cockroach God who created all things, including humans to build buildings and run them down so roaches can live in them. You can't prove this false. Heh.

 

One thing we know for certain is that God created cockroaches and he instructed Noah to take two of them on the Ark with the other animals. That's why we have them in our kitchens now.

 

That was witty.
I smiled.

JAG

``

 

If you were walking in the forest and found a field of flowers that bloomed for just one hour, just once in a lifetime, would you feel the flowers had no value? Would you feel awed that circumstance and time coincided with your presence allowing you to partake in something unique and fascinating?
Does something have greater value when it is limitless and unending or when it’s scarce and hard to obtain?

 

This message is addressed to "John Atheist":

Life has greater value when it is limitless and unending.
Life, when it ends, is NOW worthless and has zero value
to the ONE WHO NO LONGER EXISTS (this logic is compelling)
(caps for emphasis only)

"Atheists" (there really is no such thing as an atheist ~ all men know there
is a God that created them) CAN enjoy beautiful flowers. They CAN and DO
love their loved ones. They CAN and DO make valuable contributions to others
(eg. making a donation to a charity that helps hurting people} . . .

. . . but all that is nothing more than temporary value, and on atheism all that ENDS
at their death.

So?

So there is no ultimate value to their lives or to their enjoyments of beauty.

Here is what it boils down to: Do you, or do you not, strongly desire to have
ultimate value? Ultimate means that at the end of your earthy life, you get
to live on in eternity and KEEP ON enjoying all the enjoyments that you now
do enjoy.

Do you want to live forever?

Or . . .

Are you satisfied with just this earthly life followed by death?

Its your choice.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that
that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life"

So John 3:16 offers you a choice between:
(1) experiencing perish
(2) experiencing eternal life

You know what you want.
If you choose John 3:16's perish, then you will get what you want.


Best Regards,

JAG


``

 

SONNET 73
That time of year thou may'st in me behold
When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang
Upon those boughs which shake against the cold,
Bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang.
In me thou see'st the twilight of such day,
As after sunset fadeth in the west,
Which by-and-by black night doth take away,
Death's second self, that seals up all in rest.
In me thou see'st the glowing of such fire
That on the ashes of his youth doth lie,
As the death-bed whereon it must expire
Consum'd with that which it was nourish'd by.
This thou perceivest, which makes thy love more strong,
To love that well which thou must leave ere long.

 

My concern for the people who subscribe to the notion that they are immortal is that they don’t see the unique value of life in our world. It is cheap and meaningless. There is no need to care even for other creatures and to think of them as having value when in fact even the lowly cockroach is a fascinating and unique phenomenon.

Look up at the stars one night and ask yourself how far you would have to travel to find something as complex and as unique as the lowly cockroach. To think of something that amazing as worthless is to lose focus on the majesty and mystery of existence.

The truth of humanity is that we are limited in the scope of our understanding. As a subset of the universe we can never truly understand it. When we allow our confirmation biases to lull us into a sense of certainty and into a state where life loses meaning and value then we have lost something precious.

ALL life has value. Not just you. Not just me. The cockroach, the human, we are all one. We are separate but the same. We are all precious. We are all consciousness but with different parameters set on our perceptions by our differing biology.