Australia Day and reconciliation

Discussion in 'Australia, NZ, Pacific' started by Bowerbird, Jan 25, 2021.

  1. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Happy Australia Day

    Welcome to country



    The smoking ceremony by the Koomurri Dancers was impressive



    It is time and beyond time that we addressed some of the massive inequalities in our country.

    I live in a rural and remote area so I see these inequalities every day. Some are a product of being rural and remote, some are decades long impact of being “other” or worse “lesser”. I see the inequalities in health


    upload_2021-1-26_11-11-5.png

    https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/aboriginal-population-in-australia

    And it is NOT substance abuse driving this statistic
    https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/aboriginal-population-in-australia

    Think on this - in Sydney you can have a heart valve replacement done even if you are over 90 years of age. In Australia’s Northern regions we are losing people to Rheumatic Heart Disease (RHD) when they are still in their 30’s. We have the highest rate of RHD in the world.

    upload_2021-1-26_11-16-50.png

    And only in the last couple of years has this been made a notifiable disease.

    We have a long way to go to equity
     
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  2. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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  3. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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  4. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    COVID has also brought our own native treatment problem to the forefront. Especially in remote locations. And since their way of life and location means that there isn’t an easy way to respect the measures to prevent COVID in remote tribes, the government gave them the same priority than the vulnerable senior have for vaccination.
     
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  5. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Yes! Our problem will be getting the Pfizer vaccine out to rural and remote sites so we are putting a fair bit of emphasis on the Astra-Zeneca vaccine
     
  6. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    The real problem is getting any specialized medical services out into rural and remote Australia. You name it - cancer, diabetes, heart conditions, chronic inflammatory diseases, whatever the health issue the health services required to deal with them are by any measure less accessible in country regions than they are in in the major cities. And its not a White/Aboriginal problem, its an issue that crosses racial and cultural divides. The size of the country means rural Australians get 2nd rate health care unless they are wealthy enough to get to where the services are available.
     
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  7. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Mate it is only in the last couple of years that Darwin got a public funded Cardiac Cath lab. Before that they were shipping patients to Adelaide:roll:
    https://www.abc.net.au/4corners/health-hazard/11493580

    This is all true
    And unfortunately no one in the cities seem to care
     
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  8. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, these things have NOTHING what so ever to do with Australia day.

    Inequity needs to be addressed over many areas and once again we can look at racism as well as popularity politics and the self-centred desires of a populace that has been groomed to demand their personal needs be met by others.

    Now just to the main point, First Australia has to STOP trying to find division. You can point at divisions of a nation, but if you want to hang onto them then you will never find unity. I walk out my door and see a man woman and child walking in my street, If you walk out and see a Black man, Asian woman and white child, then you are racist. You can complain that others are racist because of this and that. But the truth is, there has to be intent. With that said, it has come to pass in my own area, systemic racism has shown to be just as rife as the mid twentieth century in Australia.

    But the issue of people who are so self-engrossed i what they think is the right and wrong of the world. if you do not the entire impact of such idealism then it is clear your ignoring the reality of what happens to others.

    We can talk about it all you like, but change starts at home.
     
  9. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Wow, Didn’t you post a thread asking why it is so boring???

    You proud of bulling (I already knew) others into believing what you think. If somebody else does not believe what you demand of them they can "go to hell"

    I notice the great outcry of Court getting awarded for her community efforts, but you along with the rest of the bullies have decided it is about her comments.

    DO you even know what she has done to be awarded??? Do you even care??? Clearly not, you just want to crucify her because she outspoken different opinion to YOU.

    Just like the confected outrage over not understand that Australia day is about celebrating who Australians are and the ignorance that Anzac day is about celebrating war, you want to crucify somebody because they have a different opinion than YOU...

    Go figure...
     
  10. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    ANZAC Day long ago stopped be about 'celebrating' Australia's military achievements and so much more about about remembering the sacrifices our soldiers (and others) made as well as tragedy and waste of it all.

    As for Court? She has her views and doesn't resile from them. By the same token she doesn't seem to have been actively seeking to promote those ideals beyond her immediate community, least ways she doesn't seem to have an active media profile doing so. (Happy to be proven wrong of course).

    So to an extent you have a point, people with opposing view points do seem to be 'piling in' in order to smother any attention she gets. Which is perhaps ethically questionable to the extent those same people would be outraged if the same thing was done to them. Sadly I don't think pointing this contradiction out to the people concerned will win you any friends.
     
  11. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Anzac day has never been about celebrating any military achievements. I certainly would not consider one of the greatest loss of Australian lives as being a "military achievement"

    But I do thank you, for your understanding.
    If Awards were given to everybody who held only the opinions of those outspoken bullies who berate everybody who does not agree with them in every way, not only would nobody be recognised for great achievements. People would actually stop rising above and helping community in any way.

    After all, Turnbull should never been awarded for his service to government (or whatever it was) because he stabbed a sitting PM in the back just to steal his job. His political ideals were so outrageous to some he should have been tossed from the nation. Perhaps we should do so to Gillard and Rudd for cranking up HUGE debts that the lower and middle class will be paying for decades… we could go on.

    It matters nothing if we agree with their opinions and beliefs as long as we are not awarding them for those. Sure, if they are continuing to stir discontent we should not award people but here we have a certain group who want to bully others.
    And often these are the people who claim to oppose such…
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
  12. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    You know that and I know that. But as near as I can discern the meaning of ANZAC Day has tended to 'mutate' a little over time, meaning different things to different generations. Contrast the ANZAC Days of the late 40s and 50s with the ANZAC Days of the late 60s and 70s. The former it seems to me had much stronger connotations of national pride and military Prowess. The latter? Was all baby killers and the military industrial establishment.

    The past few decades ? Remembering the sacrifice and loss. And increasingly old adversaries and enemies putting aside the past and becoming closer. Which I think the original ANZAC's would appreciate.
     
  13. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    sigh... so much to say... too many communists
     
  14. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    I believe you can note, the difference on the meaning of these days are intoned by self-consideration. That is to say, people have contrived their own meaning and demanded it is the true meaning
    Anzac day has never been about military prowess, or great achievements. The day has Always been about honouring the sacrifice people have made help make Australia and New Zealand safe and free (relatively) That is why it is held on one of the days Australia and New Zealand experienced the greatest loss of life (as previously stated) So it is always relatable to the great sacrifices people have made for their nation.

    All quotes referenced from Wikipedia

    Put simply, the meaning Anzac day is often construed for political advantage just as Australia day is. Australia day continues to bring forth the racism of nations to confect outrage over the a meaning contrived by groups to demonstrate how they are not racist…

    Since the day is about being Australian today, trying to create division in nation pretending that it will bring unity is flat out lie. It is pure and simply racism at its most blatant and Supported by media as some sort of pride in derision...
     
  15. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    And this last is rubbish! Firstly, name one public public holiday that can't in some way, shape or form be twisted and 'construed for political advantage' by someone if they are inclined to do so. Those people always exist. As far as ANZAC Day goes? For the vast majority of the population in modern Australia it has become about mourning and remembrance, even if to an extent that mourning and remembrance is partly romantic self indulgence. Show where in the past few years there's been outrage/outrage/racism etc on public display as the central theme of the day.

    Is there a mythos grown up around ANZAC Day? Certainly. But is the general theme/tone one highlighting all the things you are complaining about? No. Modern Australia has plenty of problems (some lingering, some more recent) that need to be addressed. If and I do say If ANZAC Day is on that list its so far down the agenda as to be inconsequential.
     
  16. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Never read so much bulllshit in my life, I hope that Libs and Nationals are wiped off this planet one day, go figure.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2021
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  17. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    bla bla bla, as always....
     
  18. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Clearly I gave you more credit. Sorry, I will focus to the level you want to play…


    Firstly, EVERY public holiday can be twisted by anybody for political advantage, I never claimed different. However, since it was Australia day and Anzac day we were discussing to demand I stated (a logical fallacy) as being the ONLY days for such is YOUR issue.


    As far as Anzac day… Perhaps if you just read back on this forum alone you will see my point is valid.

    That is funny, did you miss the quoted points??? It comes out funny when you try insulting me by claiming I lie, and then in the same post saying I am correct…
    Regardless of the importance of the issues surrounding Anzac day, that was in points of discussion. To NOW say it is irrelevant is rather disingenuous, since it was you who highlighted the example as main issue… but hey Your dime.
     
  19. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Lol, there it is. The hate and insult... and you wonder why the forum is boring.
     
  20. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Firstly I didn't say you lied. I said your point was rubbish i.e. completely wrong. There's a clear difference between being accused of being wrong and being accused of lying. The latter is intentional the former isn't. If you can't see the difference that's your problem not mine.

    Secondly my comments related entirely to ANZAC Day, not Australia Day. I never referred to Australia Day once. That being the case Australia Day is irrelevant in any response you care to make to my posts on this thread. You may as well bring up Zebras as a talking point. Debate Australia Day with the people who raise it. Debate ANZAC Day with me.
     
  21. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    LOL
    Umm perhaps you should read the post again you originally posted to. THEN you might want to read the title of the thread.


    As for the issue at hand… I did refer to Australia day, in a thread named for Australia day. Now as the point is about how people are using their own agenda to try label others on both of these days for their own self-indulgence then as I say your logical fallacy is yours to deal with.


    If you want to debate Anzac day start a thread or address the topic raised. If I find it interesting or something worth discussing and not just an attempt to attack people I may indulge myself and join.


    Otherwise, If you want to attack my points address my points not what YOU want to address.
     
  22. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    So this means what exactly? My post/comment was wrong? Or you simply have counter argument to make? Again, if you don't know the difference between being called a liar and being called wrong - thats your problem. Because (fact) there is a clear difference.

    So I read it again, and what? You referenced both Australia Day and ANZAC day. When I replied did not, I only referenced ANZAC day. (Read my initial response again.) And I only referenced ANZAC day because that was the only part of your post I wished to comment upon. Not the rest of it. Now point to any rule in debating (or on this forum) that stipulates someone wishing to respond can do so only if they respond to ALL the issues raised in an argument/post in their entirety.

    Why should I start a new thread on Anzac day when the only issue I wished to raise on the topic was comment that made in this one? Again I was only commenting on ANZAC day, not the rest of your post. Why would I need to start an entire new thread just to do that?

    Lastly? You seem to be positing mere disagreement as personal attack. Why? And you are of course free to be as self indulgent as you wish, that's your right. Although by the same token no-one else has to pander to that choice either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
  23. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Again LOL

    But you haven’t addressed the issues I raised, You decided what the issues raised were and decided that has nothing to with Australia day.


    Now before you go bouncing about, the very point here “I only referenced ANZAC day because that was the only part of your post I wished to comment upon


    Since the points raised and stipulated in the beginning stated the OP of the thread was that of conjecture your point here of being misrepresented is YOU.

    The fact is you tell me you want to debate Anzac day, As stated, start a thread. As to the rules of debate where you have to address the points raised, I gather you are unfamiliar with the term logical fallacy??? OR Maybe Strawman argument??? That is to say, You decided I stated something then demand I argue that stance.
    because you clearly didn’t get the points I raised and would rather debate a point you think has been stated.

    So true, I am being self-indulgent by simply pointing out that you built a strawman and decided I must debate it. True, nobody else has to pander to anybody.

    BUT, one would consider responding to any points raised that you would respond to those points and not those YOU consider are being raised. That is not self-indulgent but highly disingenuous. One would also consider while responding to the point OR points raised (your choice) one would actually take the point for the particular area they are responding to and not cherry pick the points to mean what YOU decide they are.


    As you point out, people don’t have to pander to YOUR strawmen either…
     
  24. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    So you admit you are wrong?

    [/QUOTE]But you haven’t addressed the issues I raised, You decided what the issues raised were and decided that has nothing to with Australia day.[/QUOTE]

    No. And for the last time since you don't seem to understand what I am saying. I am not disputing any comments made by you regarding Australia Day. I was simply disputing those points relevance to Australia Day. I wasn't 'deciding' anything. I simply had an issue with one part of your comment. Nothing more. The rest of your post? IMO needed no input from me. Why is that so hard to understand?

    For the rest? I'm frankly lost. I sorry but your argument borders on being incomprehensible. Now I readily admit that might be my fault. And for that I apologize in advance. Regardless, I'm not sure what it is exactly you are trying to prove.
     
  25. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    I was referring to Australia Day and Australia Day only, when the subject was raised by Bb.
    See, after months of absence (because I found most subjects too boring) the first reply I get from you is attack attack attack....
    Why mention Anzac Day, Garry? Because I have a different opinion on it?
    Reg.
     
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