Australia suffers deadliest day of pandemic as Omicron drives up hospital cases

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by sec, Jan 18, 2022.

  1. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

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    Oh! Spare me![/QUOTE]
    Are you saying forced vaccinations are the same as Hitler era medical experiments? I don't think that furthers your cause.
     
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  2. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying forced vaccinations are the same as Hitler era medical experiments? I don't think that furthers your cause.[/QUOTE]
    No the quote thingy broke - that was not me it was someone else
     
  3. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    No the quote thingy broke - that was not me it was someone else[/QUOTE]
     
  4. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Sure they are .. Hitlers forced medical treatment being one example ..[/QUOTE]
    Quote function misbehaves every so often
     
  5. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    I would say that, since we proved lockdowns don't work here in the U.S., they didn't work in Australia. The country's low number of cases was due to something else and I don't know what that something else is. It appears to changing. That isn't a good thing but I hope the Australian government can restore freedom instead of doubling down on something that doesn't work. The good news is that omicron doesn't kill many.
     
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  6. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    So, very low numbers during Australia's strict lockdowns and fast rising cases of infection since lockdowns have been lifted but you don't think lockdowns work?
    The low numbers of deaths were due to something else but you don't know what.
    What are you basing this opinion on? Feelings?
    Sure doesn't seem to be logic or critical thinking.
     
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  7. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Police States Kill.
     
  8. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    We proved lockdowns don't work here in the U.S. There is no logical reason it should work in Australia either. That is the basis of my opinion. Apparently your don't share my opinion and that is fine.
     
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  9. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    How did you ''prove'' that in a country where lockdowns were ignored by a large proportion of the population and not enforced by many States?
    You couldn't even get people to wear masks.
    I think the very low numbers of deaths in places like New Zealand and Australia where lockdowns were enforced disproves your opinion quite comprehensively.
    24 Americans have died for every 1 Australian.
    That makes properly enforced lockdowns 24 times more effective than half-arsed lockdowns and super-spreader election campaign rallies.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
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  10. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Yes I know we disagree. I said so earlier. Lockdowns in the U.S. did not reduce cases and removing them didn't increase them. It is what it is. I didn't say anything about masks but, since you bring it up, the science says the masks people wear are ineffective in controlling viral spread. N95 masks are 85% effective but few people use them. Most people use paper masks or washable cloth masks. They don't help. The population of the U.S. is quite a bit larger than 24 times that of Australia. That is a false statistic. Can we just agree to disagree now?
     
  11. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That figure is adjusted to the population difference (deaths per million).

    Deaths per million
    ==============
    Australia = 112
    USA = 2,950

    US figure is 25 times larger.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
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  12. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the correction. Good news for the citizens down under.
     
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  13. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Well, the USA did elect one who got impeached 2X and voted out as an incumbent.
     
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  14. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Basic math is one of the not the strong suit for some. If one uses percentages to compare different population sizes, many still can't get away from the raw numbers.

    But you've given a near direct comparison to similar size states in USA to the Population of Australia.
    See if that shines a light.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
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  15. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    What changed is they lifted the lockdown and didn't reinstated when Omicron became rampant.
     
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  16. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    Why not ask why an American is obsessively starting threads about Australia and COVID. OK, we all know the reason - you don't have an issue with that.

    Oh, and Sky News is American, not Australian. If Al Jazeera hired a bunch of Americans to whine about Trump & the GOP you wouldn't call it American.
     
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  17. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    You proved that America didn't have an effective lockdown strategy. That is all. Don't assume that because you failed others cannot succeed.
     
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  18. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    Acknowledging your ignorance is a reasonable start. I'm surprised.
    This post is an embarrassment to even the most ill-informed.

    US is 15 times the population and Montegriffo posted the death rate that factors that in.

    Any mask helps to a degree. They change behaviour as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
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  19. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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  20. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    No.

    All you proved in the US was that in order to work lock downs have to be implemented consistently and effectively. Something that never happened in the US. There you had State Governor's actively opposing the imposition of lock downs, effectively turning their States into COVID reservoirs! That never happened here. To be fair though America would always have a tougher time imposing quarantine lock downs than Australia would, all other factors being equal, because we have a couple of advantages to begin with.

    For a start there's geography. Although Australia and the continental United States are approximately the same area Australia has only 12th (or so) of the population and importantly that population is much more highly urbanized. (Imposing lock downs on just 4 regions in Australia effectively quarantines about 3/4 of the population.) It also has far fewer access points through which a virus like COVID can arrive in the first place. These are all big pluses.

    Then we only have 8 State and Territory Government's that need to co-ordinate on issues including health and quarantine matters, not 50 like the US. And, although politics always rears its head here as it does in the US we don't (and hopefully never will) have the toxic levels of political polarization that seem to make achieving anything at the governmental level so difficult in the US. Our Prime Minister and 8 State leaders had a 'round table' emergency national cabinet set up and running to co-ordinate measures within days of the COVID becoming a international emergency). As far as I know its still going.

    Also we have a national health system in place and since COVID took both a little longer to get here and arrived at a slower rate than in the US that system had a little longer to get its act together.

    So as a result of that and many other factors our lock downs DID demonstrably work. The statistics are clear on that, its beyond dispute. What changed was the Virus.

    The measures we had in place were enough to contain earlier strains. That is a fact and is reflected in our death rates and other statistics prior to the arrival of Omnicron. The problem was Omnicrom's 'R-naught number' or R0 and its timing.

    You probably know this anyway but to clarify R0 is a measure of how transmissible a virus is. How many new infections any one person with a virus will cause. If R0 is less than 1 any infection will lead to less than one new case (this is good). If R0 is equal to one, any old case will (on average) lead to one new infection. Any R0 number greater than 1, say 3 means any one infection will on average lead to 3 new infections.

    I have read journals reporting that COVID has a R Number of greater than 5! And Omnicron's R number appears to be higher than other all other strains so far encountered. And it was this change in R numbers that largely beat our lock down protocols, not any innate failure in lock down procedures themselves. That and some untimely political decisions about when to actually start lifting the lock downs. This was done just as Omnicrom arrived and before we knew enough to realize how infectious it was going to be. Basically after being both lucky and prepared for so long we got stiffed by the Gods of chance.

    But all that really shows is that even effective quarantine measures can be beaten. Not that quarantine measures aren't effective to begin with. So sorry, you are simply wrong about how effective well run lock downs can be. A couple of month's more leeway with Omnicrom's arrival and its entirely possible we wouldn't be seeing the numbers we are seeing now, albeit those figures are still better than the ones coming out of the US per head of population.

    The key takeaway is that to be effective lock downs have to be comprehensive, early and fast! Because once infection numbers get above a certain number even with modern technology tracking and containing the virus becomes both administratively/humanly impossible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
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  21. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    False equivalency

    Two different countries - two different world views in relation to the people. Think on this - we were the first country in the world to mandate seat belts, we were the first country in the world to mandate pool fences just to name 2 things and each and every time underpinning that is a grave concern for life.
     
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  22. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Basically because early on the pandemic got out of control and you never got that control back/. It was not just lockdowns here - we monitored the sewerage (an Australian invention BTW and yeah our government was spying on our ****) that way we could pinpoint new outbreaks and put in place LOCAL lockdowns. Plus we introduced the “COVID Check in App” where we scan a QR code every time we enter a public place. All of this was the mainstay of contact tracing - something that has been revised now our vaccine rates are high enough to ride out a wave
     
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  23. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Plus of course once Omnicron 'jumped the fence' and reached a high enough number of infections there simply wasn't the staffing or resources needed to keep up the previous levels of contract tracing that until then had help keep COVID in check.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
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  24. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    I apologise for my previous post criticizing you. I didn't see this one.

    I'll give a concession. We are an Island and our cities are far apart so it's easier to corden things off if one area gets out of control.
     
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  25. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the correction. Good news for the citizens down under.
    No need to apologize but I appreciate the thought. There are many other reasons as well that Australia has done so well in terms of covid cases. I would imagine there is much less international travel to Australia than there is to the U.S. Australians may travel less within the country. I don't know. I do know that imposing lockdowns and then removing them in the U.S. had no meaningful effect on our cases. There could be many reasons for that as well.

    I live in the country and we don't have any cases out here. But it is not as rural as your outback. I live in farm country. I don't know of anyone in our area that has been infected. Perhaps Australia is more like my area than it is like urban America. Possibly we are wrong and Ausralians are correct. I don't know. I oppose lockdowns pretty vehemently for a disease with such a low death rate. I have seen nothing positive from them here in the U.S. We have a lot of push back from the public for most of what government is doing (unsuccessfully) in response to the virus.

    G'day Mate.
     
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