Bayer-Monsanto lose next Roundup Trial - the bad side of capitalism!

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Mandelus, May 14, 2019.

  1. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Source (example):

    https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/company-news/video/bayer-loses-third-roundup-trial~1682764

    Yesterday came the News that Bayer-Monsanto lost next Trial and hjas to pay 2 billion USD damages to a couple because they used "Roundup" which contents the agent "glyphosate" ... which is highly suspicious to cause cancer.

    I am German and the Bayer AG, which had bought Monsanto, is also a German cooperation and has the head office as the crow flies 20km from my house ... but my glee about Bayer AG is huge (even if the amount of USD 2 billion penalty is grossly exaggerated). :-D

    There was a clear warning to Bayer from all sides and countless times that they should not buy this crappy and criminal US company .... just because of glyphosate itself AND because of the claims for damages in the US and elsewhere!
    But no, Bayer's Board of Management knew it better than anyone else and still bought Monsanto for about $ 63 billion! And now?

    The stock of Bayer has fallen by 43% since then, the total value of Bayer is thus in itself now less than the purchase price for Monsanto and because of the consequences and the not yet negotiated 13,000 lawsuits for damages ... and the same management has therefore the massive deletion of 12,000 jobs worldwide announced - of which approximately 4,500 jobs in Germany.

    Conclusion:

    It is a typical example of what stinks in capitalism and why more and more people question whether it is the really better system.
    Since we have a management of a large corporation, which makes a huge mistake against better knowledge and advice ... and what happens to the responsible managers about it as consequence? Nothing!
    The shareholders have reacted correctly at the last annual general meeting and the whole board is only on probation in office ... but even if the managers are fired after all ... sorry ... they'll get millions of compensation when they leave There is no consequence for them!
    But woe if the little worker makes a small mistake, then he is fired without notice and is dependent on the welfareif real bad luck, because noone will take him for a new job!

    And who has to pay the damage at the moment? the 12,000 employees who are dismissed from this incompetent management because of the mistakes of the management!

    These are abuses in the system, which are less understood and no longer accepted by the citizens. That there is then a slide into the political left and more socialist camp is clear ... and who wants to blame it the people?

    To put it bluntly ... there were and are countries, this incompetent management would now be sentenced to fifteen years in prison and may hit stones with a hammer!
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  2. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    The big mistake was the German company Bayer acquiring the offending company Monsanto, which had been making Roundup for years before the acquisition and was already in question.
     
  3. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    I could never understand why Beyer with all their German expertise would buy Monsanto at a time when they knew there would be lawsuits? I know China was interested in buying Monsanto at the time, and then backed out. It all seems very suspicious to me. Was the president of Beyer pushed into it, tricked or maybe blackmailed? Was it done to screw Germany? Shouldn't the sale have had stipulations that Monsanto would be liable for anything that occurred before Beyer bought it?

    As for Monsanto, it was Hillary Clinton's account at the time she was a lawyer in Arkansas, so I'm sure she was heavily invested in it. When Bill became president he passed the law allowing GMO's. From a small company it then became a giant and now Germany will suffer for its mishaps. .
     
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  4. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    Monsanto has been a big company most of my life,my uncle worked for them in Everett Mass for years in the 40's,50's and 60's.They have always been one of our leading chemical companies.
     
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  5. NMNeil

    NMNeil Well-Known Member

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    It affects all of us if you look at the bigger picture.
    For years Monsanto have sold 'Round-Up Ready' seeds. These seeds are from genetically modified grain crops and are resistant to being sprayed with Roundup. The selling point to farmers was that they could plant these crops then spray them with roundup to kill the weeds that grew between the crops. The genetic engineering was very clever because the seeds were sterile and the farmers were forced to buy new seeds each year from Monsanto.
    In 2016 the FDA began checking crops and other foods for traces of Round Up and found it it Quaker oats, baby food, honey and even organic California wines.
    Start at page 43 and notice how the FDA only list the percentage of foods that have no pesticide residue.
    https://www.fda.gov/media/117088/download
     
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  6. Woogs

    Woogs Well-Known Member

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    The reason glyphosate (Round-up) is being found in cereals is not because of gmo, but due to glyphosate being used to kill the crop so it can all be harvested at once. This is true of almost all cereal grains and dried beans.

    I now buy only organic cereals.
     
  7. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Correct! And the Mamagement did it against all warmings stubborn and now the mess is given ... mess which will hurt them not, but the people who work for them!
     
  8. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    First why is this couple being awarded $2B, how did the court come up with that figure for this elderly couple?

    Secound
    "A California jury awarded a stunning $2.055 billion Monday to a couple who claim thatBayer AG’s Roundup weed killer caused their cancer. But would the judgment have been different if the judge had allowed the jury to see contradictory evidence?

    That’s the question Bayer will raise in its appeal thanks to Judge Winifred Smith, who presided over the trial. The Alameda County Superior Court judge denied a request by Bayer’s lawyers to inform the jury that the Environmental Protection Agency concluded last month that Roundup’s active ingredient, glyphosate, is noncarcinogenic and poses no risk to public health when used as directed."

    The EPA’s glyphosate judgment is an interim finding and awaits final approval. But it follows similar judgments by regulators from the European Union, Australia, Japan, Canada and other developed countries after comprehensive evaluations. A longitudinal study published in 2017 in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute tracked cancer incidence among nearly 45,000 licensed pesticide applicators who used Roundup. The study found that “in unlagged analyses, glyphosate was not statistically significantly associated with cancer at any site.”
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/roundup-of-cancer-evidence-11557876010

    And

    "The health histories of Mr. and Mrs. Pilliod also figured prominently in Bayer’s case. Lawyers for the company pointed to prior cancer diagnoses, family histories of cancer and autoimmune diseases that they said elevated the couple’s risk for non-Hodgkin lymphoma—not their weedkiller use."
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-lat...wards-california-couple-2-billion-11557782148

    I heard on one TV report one of the jurors was asked about the verdict and the juror respond they wished they could make the Bayer lawyers drink roundup. That's shows emotions came into play here not just the facts.
     
  9. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    Allowing GMO's was only one of the 'evils' brought on us during the Clinton administration and the Democratic congress. Another was changing the law and allowing 6 companies to buy up the mainstream media's so they could control people's minds towards the liberal one world agenda of Soros and his Washington ideologues.

    Federal grants were also given during his administration to non state schools and colleges promoting classes that would normalize homosexuality and change our societal norms.


    Clinton also facilitated Berlin in the break up of Yugoslavia in deference to Russia's veto and in favor of Germany's former allies Croatia and Bosnia. This is when Putin realized he had to build up Russia's military to hinder what he saw as the liberal tyranny of Washington's unipolar world.
     
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  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    A $1 billion verdict for 2 people?

    This is a clear example of the insane legal environment in the U.S. and why so many smaller businesses can't afford to stay in business, and also why so many businesses have moved overseas.
    The court system has been turned into a giant lottery.

    Those legal costs are passed on to consumers, you know.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    Suppose I have a factory in the US. I move it to China and sell my product through very small third party distributors. Now I am no longer vulnerable to lawsuits in the US.

    You can sue the small third party distributor you bought the product from, but they're only a very small company without much assets, and in any case it wasn't really their fault, so a jury isn't going to award you money.

    So all these lawsuits and legal costs have been part of what has sent businesses overseas.

    I don't know who could be so brain dead to come up with these stupid laws.
    Oh wait, yes I do.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    The Germans were stupid for not taking into account the lawsuit-crazy legal environment in the US.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  13. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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    So you are using this as an argument against capitalism? Now all you have to do is show how socialism is great for the environment.

    Here in the US, there is a demand for organic produce.
     
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  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    Maybe the real issue is that the corporate shareholder system is not really such a viable business model. Maybe ownership needs to be more concentrated into the hands of billionaire owners or private equity managers.

    It's similar to the Tragedy of Commons.

    If the Corporate Structure doesn't even work, what makes you think centralized government planning would work?

    In my view, everything that happened here is more damning against government than Capitalism.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  15. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    With those on the Left supporting legal judgements like these, it's only inevitable that business interests are going to be pushed into supporting Conservatives.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  16. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Good! A blow against the evil empire. I hated the fact that they fund so much of the scientific research at my old school and you can't even say anything bad about Monsanto without getting into hissy fights with people whose funding depends on the good-will of a corporation that is destroying the field of plant sciences.

    Interesting reading on how despite coming under attack from corporate espionage, Health Canada was able to keep BGH out of our milk supply if anyone is interested.

    Make a good spy novel!
     
  17. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    They already support and fund politicians that do their bidding - and that is in the corporate wings of both parties.
     
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  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    So blatant injustice was okay because it was against an evil company?
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  19. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    What blatant injustice?
     
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    You don't think $1 billion for 2 people is an injustice?

    (And keep in mind there's not even any clear direct proof there was a connection)

    Stupid people mindlessly bankrupting big corporations. Anyone who can't see the problem here has a reptile brain.

    That jury was too stupid and should never have been allowed to serve.

    Do you not understand the difference between, say, $5 million and $1 billion ??
    It's all just a big incomprehensible number, isn't it?
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  21. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Just some additions and corrections. The “Roundup” genetics are not limited to grain crops (corn). Soybeans and canola are oilseed crops commonly utilizing the technology. Roundup ready alfalfa is also common. Roundup ready sweet corn exists but I don’t know if it’s common in commercially grown sweet corn found in the grocery store or not.

    Wheat with the roundup gene exists but it is not grown for food. It is illegal to grow it. Application of roundup to wheat before harvest may happen in Oregon or somewhere but I’ve never seen it done in the Midwest.

    There is no such thing as sterile roundup ready seed. Hybrids like corn don’t breed true so you can’t save and plant seed from your crop. Soybeans and alfalfa are not hybrids so seed can be saved and planted. However, the trait is protected so Monsanto or now Bayer will sue you if you are caught doing so. Some canola is hybridized and some is still open pollinated.

    For what it’s worth, I’m interested to see where research leads on this issue. I won’t be surprised if when it’s all said and done glyphosate is proven to be a contributing factor in cancer and other health problems. On the other hand, if it was as bad as some say, I would most certainly be dead by now because not only do I eat all these foods with traces, I regularly use the chemical as well. And no matter how careful you are, you breath it, get it on your skin, and even in your eyes sometimes.

    Because many weeds have developed resistance to glyphosate, it’s use will be steadily decreasing in the future. Bayer would have known this so I’m not sure what they were thinking even ignoring the liability issues.
     
  22. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    No ... I do not take this as an argument against capitalism ... I show what causes the Stone Age capitalism and who is here as well as in socialism, the loser: the ordinary citizens!

    Again and again, the righties and conservatives hack on socialism and communism ... extremely extreme in the US where the word "social" is very suspicious of being evil communist.
    Only ... these people should tell me then with reasonable and rational reasons, why such a criminal management as that of Bayer remains completely unpunished, even if they should be fired, even take millions of severance pay and because of their mistakes and incompetence then so many thousands of people have to lose their jobs, who are not to blame!

    THAT IS THE POINT that fewer and fewer people want to and can understand and why the underlying system is then called into question ... and first of all the alternative other extremes is considered better.
     
  23. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Especially from the US, a capitalism is preached, in which the state should not interfere with anything in the economy. Everything would settle on its own ...
    That's a lie!

    If the state does not keep an eye on the economy, if it enacts and enforces appropriate laws against abuse and all that, anarchy breaks out in the economy!
    The whole system stinks in many places. Even Trump complains suddenly ... based on national points ... if US companies in the US want to close factories and fire Americans, and then instead use new or existing factories in cheap foreign countries. Sorry ... that too is pure capitalism ... but suddenly and when it criticizes and insults a righty, it's actually evil! No, it's even really evil and Trump rightly blurts, but let Obama do exactly the same justification to him in front of him and say as Trump did on the topic that Obama would have been labeled a socialist!

    Unless it is a family-owned and family owned company, it is run by managers. These managers are on average about 2-3 years then CEO, or have a post in the board of management and supervisory board. After that, they are gone with a lot of money in their pockets and "face new tasks and challenges" as it is called in the usual phrase!
    Such a man (or a woman) has only been recruited to make a profit, and every second of them has as a very first idea the biggest cost factor - staff costs - to tackle ... so to fire people and / or to make "outsourcing" and "relocation".

    If a company is bought by a larger one, then the next idiotic phrase often comes: "We have to use common synergies"! This means nothing else than, for example, that if the buyer already has his accounting department in cheap foreign countries, where people get only a third as salary, then the accounting of the purchased company must of course use this "synergy" ... well accuntants dismissed and then replace for each dismissed accountant 2-3 cheaper new jobs abroad.
    And so a manager who does all this, thereby reducing costs = maximizes profit, who goes as a successful manager after 2 years with millions in the bank account .... no matter what the then evil impact in practice, what he did. That, too, is capitalism that angeres more and more people and leaves the system in doubt.

    And that brings us to the example of Bayer AG and the purchase of Monsanto!
    Shareholders have not relieved the Board of Management at the Annual General Meeting because of the huge losses so far and the uncertain future. But ... so what?
    Even if the entire board of management is fired by the supervisory board ... the CEO and his colleagues against many millions of euros compensation. And in the meantime, because of the failure of the managers, many thousands of people have innocently lost their job at Bayer AG and are dependent on social benefits and / or have to do several low-paid mini jobs to survive until they hopefully find a new good job!
     
  24. Woogs

    Woogs Well-Known Member

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    The Detox Project and Sustainable Pulse have created and published Wednesday the first ‘Short History of Glyphosate’, which identifies some important dates during the scandalous history of the World’s most used herbicide.

    [​IMG]
    1961: Glyphosate was patented in the U.S. as a Descaling and Chelating Agent by the Stauffer Chemical Co.

    Due to its strong metal chelating properties, glyphosate was initially used as a descaling agent to clean out calcium and other mineral deposits in pipes and boilers of residential and commercial hot water systems.

    Descaling agents are effective metal binders, which grab on to Calcium, Magnesium and heavy metals to make the metal water soluble and easily removable.

    1970: Glyphosate was discovered to be a herbicide (weedkiller) by Monsanto scientist John Franz and was patented as such.

    1974: Monsanto brought glyphosate to market in 1974 under the trade name Roundup.

    [​IMG]

    1982: Monsanto was already working on creating Roundup Ready genetically modified crops. So was Luca Comai, a scientist from Calgene (a biotech company that Monsanto would later acquire).

    1985: The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) classified glyphosate as a Class C Carcinogen.

    On February 11, 1985 the carcinogenic potential of glyphosate was first considered by an EPA panel, called the Toxicology Branch Ad Hoc Committee. The Committee, in a consensus review dated March 4, 1985, then classified glyphosate as a Class C Carcinogen. A Class C Carcinogen has ”Suggestive evidence of carcinogenic potential” according to the EPA.

    1985: Monsanto tried to persuade the U.S. EPA that glyphosate was not a possible human carcinogen

    Dr. George Levinskas, who joined Monsanto in 1971 and became Director of Environmental Assessment and Toxicology, was a lead player in the cover up of the carcinogenic potential of the now banned PCBs in the 1970s.

    In April 1985 he wrote an internal company letter stating the following: “Senior management at the EPA is reviewing a proposal to classify glyphosate as a class C “possible human carcinogen” because of kidney adenomas in male mice. Dr. Marvin Kuschner will review kidney sections and present his evaluation of them to the EPA in an effort to persuade the agency that the observed tumors are not related to glyphosate.”

    1985: In the summer of 1985, Monsanto successfully created genetically modified petunia plants tolerant of small amounts of Roundup “but not to the amounts that farmers typically spray on weeds.”

    In October of that year, Comai’s team published their own work in Nature. Still, neither group produced anything that could be commercialized.

    1989: Monsanto strike deal with Asgrow to create Roundup Ready genetically modified crops for commercial market

    In 1989, three companies struck a deal: Agracetus, Asgrow and Monsanto. Up until this point, Monsanto had trouble transferring genes into the most valuable crops on the market, corn and soybeans, using its existing method of genetic engineering.

    Agracetus offered a new method, called a gene gun. In hopes of using it on soybeans, Agracetus had approached Asgrow, a leading soybean seed company. The two approached Monsanto because they needed a gene worthy of engineering into Asgrow’s soybeans. Monsanto gave them free access to the Roundup Ready gene.

    1991: EPA change classification of glyphosate from Class C “Suggestive evidence of carcinogenic potential” to Class E which suggests “evidence of non-carcinogenicity for humans”

    The Class C carcinogen classification for glyphosate, which was decided upon in 1985, was changed by the EPA to a Class E category which suggests “evidence of non-carcinogenicity for humans”. Mysteriously this change in glyphosate’s classification occurred during the same period that Monsanto was developing its first Roundup-Ready (glyphosate-resistant) GM Crops.

    THE GLYPHOSATE BOX

    Test Yourself for Glyphosate and Join New Glyphosate Biobank

    Glyphosate Residue Free Certification

    Glyphosate in Popular American Foods

    1o Things You Need to Know about Glyphosate

    1992: Pioneer pay Monsanto for use of Roundup resistance gene

    Pioneer (DuPont) paid a one-time payment of half a million dollars for the rights to use Monsanto’s Roundup resistance gene in its soybeans forever. Monsanto’s profit would come entirely via the additional sales of Roundup it would gain.

    1996: Introduction of Roundup Ready Soybeans

    Roundup Ready soybeans were commercialized by Asgrow in coordination with Monsanto and separately by Pioneer (DuPont).

    In 1996, the first year genetically engineered (GE), glyphosate-tolerant crops were planted commercially in the U.S., glyphosate accounted for just 3.8% of the total volume of herbicide active ingredients applied in agriculture (28 million pounds in 1995).

    [​IMG]

    2007: Glyphosate usage is more than double that of the next most heavily sprayed pesticide – Atrazine.

    By 2007, the EPA reported agricultural use of glyphosate in the range of 180–185 million pounds. In the 20-year timespan covered by EPA sales and usage reports (1987–2007), glyphosate use rose faster and more substantially than any other pesticide. Usage in the range of 81.6–83.9 million kilograms, which occurred in 2007, was more than double the next most heavily sprayed pesticide (atrazine, 73–78 million pounds; ~33.1–35.4 million kilograms).

    For over a decade, glyphosate-based herbicides have been, by far, the most heavily applied pesticides in the U.S.

    2010: Glyphosate was patented in the U.S. by Monsanto as an antibiotic.

    This patent has led to major concerns about possible harm being caused by glyphosate including the killing of beneficial gut bacteria which causes immune system damage.

    2012: Professor Seralini study shows harm being caused by low doses of glyphosate-based herbicides and GM crops

    [​IMG]

    In 2012 the French Professor Gilles-Eric Seralini published his famous toxicity study, which showed how rats fed on a diet containing NK603 Roundup tolerant GM maize or given water containing Roundup, at levels permitted in drinking water and GM crops in the U.S., suffered severe liver and kidney damage.

    This was not the first independent study showing the possible damage being caused to health by glyphosate-based herbicide but it was the most high profile long-term study.

    2014: Glyphosate usage booms even more in the U.S.

    Since genetically modified crops were introduced in 1996 glyphosate use had increased 9-fold in the U.S. and 15-fold worldwide by 2014.

    By 2014, annual farm-sector glyphosate usage increased to approximately 240 million pounds (~108.8 million kilograms), based on average annual crop use reported by the NASS. Available use data published by the USDA, USGS, and EPA show that a surprisingly large share (approximately two-thirds) of the total volume of GBH applied since 1974 has been sprayed in just the last decade.

    [​IMG]

    2015: The World Health Organization’s cancer agency IARC classified glyphosate as “probably carcinogenic to humans” (Group 2A).

    This was based on “limited” evidence of cancer in humans (from real-world exposures that actually occur) and “sufficient” evidence of cancer in experimental animals (from studies of “pure” glyphosate).

    IARC also concluded that there was “strong” evidence for genotoxicity, both for “pure” glyphosate and for glyphosate formulations.

    2016: University of California San Francisco (UCSF) discovers glyphosate in 93% of urine samples collected across U.S.

    In a unique public testing project carried out by a laboratory at the University of California San Francisco (UCSF), glyphosate was discovered in 93% of urine samples during the early phase of the testing in 2015.

    The urine and water testing was organized by The Detox Project and commissioned by the Organic Consumers Association.

    2016: Alarming levels of glyphosate contamination found in popular American foods

    [​IMG]

    Glyphosate was found at alarming levels in a wide range of best-selling foods across the U.S., Food Democracy Now! and The Detox Project announced in November 2016.

    The testing project found alarming levels of glyphosate in General Mills’ Cheerios and Honey Nut Cheerios, Kellogg’s Corn Flakes, Raisin Bran and Frosted Flakes and PepsiCo’s Doritos Cool Ranch, Ritz Crackers and Stacy’s Simply Naked Pita Chips, as well as many more famous products.

    2017: Groundbreaking study shows Roundup causes liver disease at low doses

    This peer-reviewed study led by Dr Michael Antoniou at King’s College London using cutting edge profiling methods describes the molecular composition of the livers of female rats administered with an extremely low dose of Roundup weedkiller over a 2-year period. The dose of glyphosate from the Roundup administered was thousands of times below what is permitted by regulators worldwide. The study revealed that these animals suffered from non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD).

    This study is unique in that it is the first to show a causative link between consumption of Roundup at a real-world environmental dose and a serious disease condition.

    2017: Internal Monsanto and EPA communications, released during a growing number of Roundup cancer court cases, reveal the reality of the 30+ year glyphosate cover-up

    The internal company e-mails show how Monsanto has colluded with the EPA to play down glyphosate safety concerns, admitted that Roundup / glyphosate could possibly cause cancer and other harm to human health and also attempted to silence the work of Professor Seralini.

    2018: Monsanto Loses Landmark Roundup Cancer Trial, Set to Pay USD 78 Million in Damages

    Monsanto lost a landmark cancer trial in San Francisco and was ordered to pay over USD 289 Million (reduced on appeal to USD 78 Million) in total damages to the former school groundskeeper Dewayne Johnson, a California father who has non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, which was caused by Monsanto’s glyphosate-based weedkiller Roundup.
     
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  25. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    Capitalism - Socialism

    Just to mention a few things. Our economic system and what made us the wealthiest nation on earth, other than our climate, earth and the Protestant work ethic was 'free enterprise'. 80% of Americans were always small business owners, and this is what is failing today with all the regulations and taxes imposed on them. Frankly I think it's deliberate so as to establish a new world order under the ownership of large corporations and banks.
     

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