Billy Graham taught hatred (gays, non-believers), so I assume he's in "hell"?

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Canell... .this video interview is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Sounds like a good trade, actually. What's science ever going to do for you? Not a damn thing.

 

I like your always-positive attitude - I should me more like that, myself.

 

Cute.
Again, no, just to be clear: Hitler was pure evil. You, for example, are far more ethical than he ever was. You are more ethical than Jesus, as well. You and I are probably at the same ethical level, since my gut feeling is that you do care about people a lot - you just defend illogical religions and I go in a different direct.

PS my atheist dinner was deee-lish-e-usssss!

 

John of PATMOS, IIRC.

 

Does that deal still stand today(?), because I know some horny friends who I could maybe hookup with.......oh....oh never mind.

 

True

 

Why would someone want to follow a book that doesn't understand right from wrong? That would make no sense at all. Sure, maybe as an interesting work of fiction (like "Star Wars" - the force and Wookies, etc.), but certainly not as an ethical guide book, obviously.

 

In Jake's mind.

 

"Jesus will let me survive my death - that's all I need to know".

 

Nice!

 

Science teaches me the TRUTH.

 

Our judgement at the Judgement Seat of Christ refers to the rewards we receive SINCE our salvation. Has nothing to do with our Eternal Destiny. Just Rewards for Service in Christ.

 

Many claim that, but it is disputed. What is known is he never saw or heard Jesus. Revelations is a dream vision story.

 

Freedom Seeker:
The difference between us is you are writing from a non-secular spiritual perspective as if heaven, hell, Jesus, God and the Bible is "God's word" are real. I am not. To the opposite, I'm writing from a secular humanist perspective.

Suppose you were with a group of highly superstitutious, religious people who were engaged in raiding other towns, murdering, raping and enslaving them - and a horrifically evil government structure too of torture and unthinkable sadism. Their religion and society has all sorts of bad practices and values.

You stand up and say: "I've from God, I'm am God's spokesperson on earth. I am of God himself. If you continue to do your raids, all of you are going to be terribly tortured and punished for all eternity. But if you don't - and if you are kind, generous, non-violent, help others, don't hurt women - you will be forever rewarded after you die with a life more wonderful than you imagine." You do a few magic tricks and a couple of healing stunts - and they believe you.

Of course, there is a lot of rotten stuff they do like slavery and other rotten stuff in that era, but you've focused on the biggies and covered them all generally - plus if you go TOO far they'll kill you on the spot. So on slavery you only dare go as far and declare that slaves must not be mistreated but instead be treated kindly and fairly.

In your view, what you SAID makes you MORE EVIL that Hitler, Stalin, Manson, and KJU - though all you did was talk and try to convince them to not be so violent.

Isn't that your view? Words that Jesus said were worse than the Hitler causing the holocaust against Jews, homosexuals, the disabled, gypsies, Russians, etc and WW2? The greatest of all immorality is in spoken words, not mass murderous acts?

What if Jesus was just a man. Whether delusionally or tactically, he told people he was of God and to do what he says - sacrifice, even your own life, to love and non-violence, peace and charity - that being good isn't about giving money to religious leaders - and no need to keep killing animals as sacrifices either. To prove it, he set himself up to be killed - claiming he is the sacrifice. The Bible, of course, didn't even exist for centuries down the road for him to comment on.

As a secular, humanist question only - not a spiritual/religious question - didn't that make him an extremely good man in an extremely violence, miserable and dangerous place and era? As a non-religious question, were his words as a person more evil than Hitler's actions as a person? In fact, as a person, wasn't he MORE ethic and did more for the morality he wanted to to have than you or I?

What have YOU done greater than that to try to stop violence, starvation, abuse of women, to protect animals, to oppose the for-profit aspects of religion? You literally put your life on the line subjected to unthinkable torture and death, and gave up everything you have for this exactly when? According to the book anyway, Jesus knew fairly early on he would be tortured and executed for this - an even worked that in to his attempts at persuasion in light of their myths and legends. He deliberately would go so far as to let that be done to him.

Maybe he was insane. If so, not a bad form of insanity. He didn't go shoot up schools, did he?

However, IF you DO claim Jesus was/is God, that heaven and hell do exist, and THEN poise your ethical questions that could be debated. SO... do you claim that in fact Jesus was/is God, that heaven and hell exist, and that the Bible is "God's word?" If you do not believe this, the ONLY rational perspective for you to take in evaluation is of Jesus as a man and in the context of the culture he was in then - not now. As a man, he certainly would have been imperfect, could not forcibly change anything, and would have to pick what and how much he tried to change attitudes carefully since he was a pauper with nothing against unthinkably brutal authorities and opposition.

Do you see the difference in how we each look at the topic of "Jesus?" Even the early Christians were NOTHING like Christians now. They basically were like poor hippies living in a commune sharing what little they had and not believing that life was about materialism. Of course, organized religion as a government would come to replace that. Jesus, the man, would have no control over how what he did or said would evolve. However, it did come to end the ancient brutal pagan religions and did start a pathway to new human rights - though also was horrifically corrupted too by people to use it for power, control and evil.

Do you also claim because the Rev Dr. Martin Luther King Jr never condemned passages of the Bible he too was MORE EVIL than Hitler? So was President Obama for not condemning passages of the Bible?

It is even POSSIBLE for someone ONLY saying words to be WORSE than a true mass murderer of millions of people? The ultimate hatred of free speech -that free speech (for non-violence) is more evil than anything anyone actually DOES such as mass murder of millions?

What if Jesus was just a man. Then what is your JUDGMENT of him?

 

The most important thing to learn from science is how to think and properly evaluate information and claims.

 

So what does science say about a 2000 year-old invisible mind-reading zombie from Nazareth who will magically save one's "soul", up to a magic invisible place (somewhere?) in the sky, if one just "believes" in him?

 

Just like virtually every other actual author in the Bible!!

What does that tell us about Jesus? That's he's about as "real" as Paul Bunyan is.

 

1. I appreciate your well-thought-out post.
2. This translation of the Bible is great because it puts stuff JESUS (himself) allegedly said in RED FONT: http://biblehub.com/nlt/matthew/5.htm
Reading what Jesus (himself) allegedly said shows him to be quite nuts. An extremist, to be sure. I like "love your neighbor", however. But I don't need to be told that - I'm not stupid....just like I don't need "god" to tell me "thou shalt not kill" in the most sacred of all writings (the 10 Commandments).

 

If such a zombie does exist it doesn't matter what science says. If such a zombie does not exist it doesn't matter what science says.

I can envision you firing magazine after magazine of AR15 rounds into the dark of the night, shouting "I'll kill all you zombies! Every last one of you!!"

The police ask you what are you doing? "I'm killing all the damn zombies!"

One of the police says "I don't see any zombies."

You reply: "Of course not. Only an idiot doesn't know there's no such thing as zombies. Well, one of my neighbors believes in zombies, but he is an idiot."

And then you load another magazine to empty into the dark screaming "Die, zombies, die!!"

Such is the nature of your messages: a fixation on dedicating irreplaceable hours of your life for a ferocious war against what you declare doesn't exist.

 

Graham was an excellent Christian.
Graham was not a nice person.

 

This describes Mohammad, and his most pious, most religious, most we-follow-our-prophet's-footsteps followers....ISIS.

 

Wait - are you saying that if a person follows the thinking of the Bible quite piously, like Billy Graham (well, and arguably Jesus, himself) did, that that person is likely "not a nice person"? But that would mean that the phrase "Jesus is love!" would be wrong?

 

So true! I blame his #1 role model - his prophet.

Your posts are getting better and better. I'm in awe.

 

Where did that value of "thou shalt no kill" you have come from. MANY atheist sociologists and psychologists will readily admit it is impossible for them to even themselves distinguish what of their values came out of Western Christianity values and teachings. "Thou shalt not kill" is NOT a natural trait of any predatory animal - which is exactly what homo sapiens are - why we have canines and eat meat. Virtually all of us DO kill - at least indirectly.

The ONLY humans in modern history of a "thou shalt no kill" view was some Buddhist monks of such a strict view. But they had a terrible problem. Fire ants were taking over their temple and they were forbidden to harm them.

It's like Hindus who say monkeys must not be harmed. So their town is filled with monkeys - monkeys who and become quite annoying and even vicious. So they don't harm them - other than throw rocks at them - and have someone they hired to capture the worst monkeys to release them elsewhere.

I'm guessing you don't REALLY believe "thou shalt not kill." Rather, "thou shalt not kill" unless you should? Would you have killed Hitler in WW2 if you could? I gather by your messages, if Hitler and Jesus were standing side by side in a twilight zone time variance putting them together, you'd shoot Jesus to stop what he was saying before you'd shoot Hitler to stop what he was doing. Correct?

Do you think your thought process and focus will ever evolve beyond hatred of Christianity as a metaphysical question only? 20 years from now you'll be ranting the same things?