Blackbird - Faster than the Wind?

Discussion in 'Science' started by HereWeGoAgain, Aug 17, 2021.

  1. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Can a wind-powered car go faster than the wind, straight downwind?



     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
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  2. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    It can not only travel downwind, it can also travel upwind!
     
  3. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    So here is the physics challenge: How does the energy from the wind get transferred to the car, if the car is going faster than the wind?
     
  4. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    I just discovered Derek a few months back and subscribed to his YouTube channel. This guy is one to keep an eye on. He's really good, but if I understand the video it's a combination of cancelling the tailwind, gear ratios, and the forces are based on the math of levers. Something like that. Did I pin the tail anywhere on the same wall as the donkey?:banana:
     
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  5. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Firstly, I agree 100%. I think Veritasium (Derek) is great! And notably so did everyone else in the second video.

    Yes, if you watch the very end of the second video, he does a wonderful demonstration of a pure gear analog, So that clearly demonstrates the gear ratio aspect. But understanding how the energy transfers from the wind to the car is still not so clear. That is why the professor from UCLA was willing to bet $10K that it couldn't go faster than the wind. The math is still disputed.

    Personally, I think they still have it wrong. They don't account for the delta of the wind moving through the blades. And the divide by zero is a problem as it always will pop up at some speed as the math stands.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
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  6. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    It is certainly counter intuitive and possibly the stunt car in the next Mad Max movie! :p. Unfortunately I don’t see many other applications for this
     
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  7. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    What about sail boats? Go faster than the wind without tacking...
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
  8. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    As I understand it part of this relies on the wheels turning the sails
     
  9. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    On the blackbird, the wheels turn the turbine. I would have to think about how you would implement the same concept on a sailboat but I an imagine a few options.. And someone actually filed a patent for some kind of boat/propeller configuration using the same concept.

    An interesting fact regarding the Blackbird, the upper speed is only limited by the drag. In a frictionless world, in principle there would be no limit on the top speed regardless of the wind speed.

    Of course that claim may depend on the accepted physics solution for this that I think is still wrong.
     
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  10. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    The reason it can't move faster than the wind is the same reason it can't move when the is no wind. If you jump start the vehicle by towing it to the point the movement is enough to turn the air foil then it would just get faster and faster until it reaches light speed. If this is true they have discovered perpetual motion.
     
  11. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    There seems to be a transition at the point when the vehicle is moving as fast as the wind the windmill that started the wheels turning becomes a fan powered by the wheels. You could only ever go a little faster than the wind until the vehicle loses momentum.
     
  12. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Interesting videos thanks for posting
     
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  13. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    It all reminds me very strongly about David Brins “Practice Effect”

    https://www.davidbrin.com/books.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
  14. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    But it does. And not just a little.

    And no its not perpetual motion. But the physics at work is very tricky.

    Watch the very end of second video where he uses the board and wheels to demonstrate the concept.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
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  15. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    I loved that book - The only thing I don’t like about.Brins work is he leaves you with the feeling there should be more to the story
     
  16. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    I was responding to Poly, How does this remind you of that book?
     
  17. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    We have people who here who think they know better than the world's expert immunologists. We have people who think they know better than the world's vast majority of climate scientists, And we have people who believe they know better than our best quantum physicists.

    But no one here can explain a 17th century physics problem.

    Remember that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021

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