Boris Johnson wins

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Nonnie, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. Oddquine

    Oddquine Well-Known Member

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    When did the Scots get conquered and by whom? Scotland has never been conquered in the same way as Wales and Ireland were.

    And I assume you are aware that that £ 2,000 a head "extra" is pretty much what Westminster spends on our behalf on debt interest, defence and paying Westminster departments for doing stuff for us we could do for ourselves, if we actually needed to do the stuff in the first place. I ask again...tell me one single thing we get from being part of the UK that we can't get as an independent country......just one single thing. We pay for our "perks" out of the part of our taxes that Westminster allows us to have back to spend. Westminster could easily give England the same perks, if it wasn't so busy making sure that the rich get richer and the poor get shafted.
     
  2. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ok.
     
  3. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    Oh boy.....another holier than thou merchant....I think you can do better than churning out meaningless sound bites.
     
  4. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Can I assume you're a doomster?
     
  5. Oddquine

    Oddquine Well-Known Member

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    So explain to me just what the Governments in Westminster since 2010 have been doing other than making the rich richer and the poor poorer, then.
     
  6. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    1. the UK parliament voted against a No Deal Brexit
    2. Johnson would have to organize a majority in the Parliament for a no deal. Forget about that.
    3. If he goes for a no deal by default, a instant no confident vote would end his charade
    4. renegotiating with the EU, so he gets a deal which would get a majority in Parliament, forget about it.

    Have fun.
     
  7. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But.......the question is........are you a doomster?

    I used to call them fearmongers but I quite like the term doomster.
     
  8. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    why 2010? That soundbite I remember hearing when Micheal Foot was doddering about Westminster and Wedgy Benn was going on about it as well...any other date you want to try?
    So...the "rich" are getting "richer"...OH MY GOD how tragic for the world? Why is that such an issue for you? THE RICH ARE RICH....wonder how that happened??? Hmmmm....are you jealous or frustrated that you haven't got the brains to get rich? Or perhaps you haven't got a smidgin of clue how markets or finance works or how to make deals? Don't worry there are people who are quite clever that do and they are the ones that build economies. So...why should the "rich" not get richer...if they got poorer the country would be screwed so maybe we should try and make the richer get really rich so they can subsidize all the pig **** stupid folk that cant be arsed to work or are to lard arsed fat to waddle to the offy for their ciggies and white stripe or scrounging off the state in general because they can because the "rich" have to pay taxes for these wankers to exist. So I guess to answer your question the Governments in Westminster have been extracting as much cash as they can from the "rich"; and indeed anyone and everyone with two coins to rub together so that they can keep the lid on the spongers and whingers who harp on about the "rich" and "fat cats" because they haven't the brains to fathom how the world works but it sure sounds good moaning about them......:D
     
  9. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know if this is true but I was listening to Richard Wolff being questioned about the possibility of the UK coming out on No Deal. Now he's American and he may not know enough about this but he is a professor of economics. He said that it would not just hurt the UK it would also hurt the EU badly. He was suggesting it could lead to a world recession if Britain came out on No Deal. Economists seem to think we would find it hard to come out of another world recession - which is expected anyway some time soon.
     
  10. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since the 80's we have had increasing inequality. Even at the very top we have ever fewer people with ever more wealth. Apparently 8 with the wealth of half the world. You can forget everything about democracy apart from a vote ever few years in this situation. They rule the world.

    It takes more a sort of craftiness and lack of morality to become one of these super rich.

    Is that all that is important to you? What about quality of life. What about not living in a perpetual state of war? What about giving all people opportunities? What about not doing which you are praising which is submitting to Corporate Power which tends to go hand in hand with fascism. It depends on the type of world you want really. You go for having 8 people having all the wealth and for us to descend into fascism and possibly a new kind of feudalism which is what political theorists are talking about now. You go for being a serf. Your choice but not everyone finds this a good choice and knows it leads to war and the worse in human beings. A more equal society however leads to much better social cohesion, a massive drop in crime and increase in mental well being. We all have our different desires though.


    Actually most of the rich nowadays avoid tax. Possibly you believe you are the 'rich' and are scared of Oddquine running off with your money. Otherwise I suspect it is you who does not have a clue how things work and that everybody has the right to the opportunity to build a decent life for their families and that to have a few people earning such obscene amounts of money largely through perpetual war is the last thing this planet needs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
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  11. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that assessment. A recession in Europe would happen, but the question would be how deep that recession would be. Not all countries would be hit equal, by a no deal Brexit.
    Germany would have a greater hit, but it has dealt with that before in 2008 and 2009 with great success. The whole country, its States and Communities and Industries have since been able to run in the black figures and been able to put gigantic amounts of money aside.

    The UK has not been able to do that, it runs a constant deficit and its main industries are owned by foreign companies.
    Who can afford it? I don't think the UK can afford it, loosing 42% of its trade, free trade.
    That will be a tough pill to swallow.
    Just take that figure, 20,000 trucks a day and tomorrow you have customs inspections. How will that work in the UK.

    Already the world economy is slowing down.
    Yes a no deal Brexit will cause a world wide down turn
     
  12. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So given that the first thing the Tory Leave elite said on managing to scrape the vote was that they would be prepared for No Deal, suggests that they were prepared to bring the world into another recession/depression even though many economists say that this would create a situation from which the economic system could not recover resulting in wars, starvation and so on and further that they were aware this was what they might need to do when they supported leaving the EU and pretended it would be the easiest thing in the world. When we move to the point where they appear to want this more than anything, which is where we are now, we have to question what is in it for them. It certainly will not be an increase in the standard of living from many who voted for them because the austerity measures this same Government was producing had destroyed their hope - they would as always be the ones most hit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  13. Oddquine

    Oddquine Well-Known Member

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    I see Alexa has beaten me to it, and said pretty much what I would have, but much more politely so I'll just say.......

    And right there, in your suppurating nutshell of a post, is what is so wrong with the UK (and much of the world today)..the "I'm all right, Jack" mentality which prevails...the mentality which considers that the only way to measure worth is by the weight of the wallet or the number of digits before the decimal point in the annual salary, and the only purpose in life is to ensure that both of those increase....regardless of the effects on those who actually do the hard graft to produce the profits/income which are,in many cases then shipped off-shore to avoid paying the tax due to maintain the infrastructure which supports those who produce and buy the goods and services.

    I am not jealous or frustrated that I haven't got the brains to get rich, I am delighted that I have always had the brains not to want to get rich (I don't even do any lotteries)....and I still have the brains to see what the UK/world has become in my lifetime. I did have the brains and qualifications back in the 1960s to go to university, and when I decided not to do that, I nearly joined the civil service instead, but in the end I decided to stay locally to work because amassing money isn't the be-all and end-all of existence and a sufficiency is enough. I have always had a sufficiency for my modest needs and wants, even today as a pensioner, and I have never understood why people get obsessed with salting money away just for the sake of it, as I don't see how having much more money than you can ever spend makes for any more happiness than having enough to fulfill your needs, and, if you are lucky, your dreams....but if your only dream is to be very rich, and you are pleased that Governments are helping you achieve that dream..by cutting your taxes and paying for it by visiting austerity on those below you in the wealth/income pecking order, .then I am supremely glad I don't have a brain oriented in that self-centred direction.

    I think that once everyone has a sufficiency,if some then want to fill their wallets with more cash than they can ever spend, that is up to them, but I don't believe that society should be predicated on assuming that the richer people get, the more of that wealth will trickle down to benefit the poorest without Government interference, because the past decades have illustrated that that is spin, not reality. In the UK today, the problem is that too many of our elected representatives have their/their families money in the tax-havens the EU wants to crack down on..so will never remove the loopholes which make the off-shore movement of money possible and easy....hence Brexit...nothing to do with regaining sovereignty, which we never lost, but more to do with protecting London, one of the biggest tax-havens/money launderers in Europe and maintaining its ability to spray money off-shore to attract foreign funds.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
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  14. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    ....where....show me....where the fukc in this country does that mentality exist...do you live in UK?? Do you actually get out and about????
    yeah...well...unfortunately mediocrity does not build or make a nation function, however, I'm sure it salves the soul as one dons ones flat cap and heads tu't mill....
    ...huh....do you know the demographics of them that voted for Brexit....
    .... yeah...which in GVA terms is what roughly 29% of the total UK economy...probably worth protecting if you want your benefits, NHS etc. etc.

    Generally though you are a moraliser which is fine but morality requires a certain amount of reality.
     
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  15. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    I would say you are over doing it. No war, or wars.
    It will be just business as usual, the middle class which has barely recovered from the last recession, will get beaten up again and than work their butts of again to bring the countries back, while the folks responsible for it, drink their Champagne as usual, well tempered.
     
  16. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    No just a pragmatic realist
     
  17. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you for the chuckle.
     
  18. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are overdoing it relying on one possibility I mentioned. The one, I should add which was the end game of a similar situation in the 30's.

    If you believe as you said you believe that this would likely lead to a world recession when it is known that the world could not handle another world recession then you are the person playing light. My question was what are the reasons why the elite of the Tory Party deliberately were and are acting to create such a situation. What is in it for them? You agreed that it would likely lead to world recession. You did not comment on the reality that another world recession is likely to have disastrous consequences. You try just to blame it on the British and say that anything bad is going to happen to us. However if you believe it is likely to result in a world recession then that opens up a completely new game. My question which you have totally ignored is why did the Brexiter elite decide to do something which is going to be so economically disastrous. Possibly you have changed your mind and no longer believe it is likely to lead to a world recession.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
  19. Oddquine

    Oddquine Well-Known Member

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    It's a predominantly right wing mentality...mostly a Tory one. I live in a Scottish constituency which voted in a Tory MP and came close to voting for Brexit, and that is certainly the prevailing attitude there.

    How is it mediocre not to want to be rich? It seems to me that grubbing after money to the exclusion of everything else is greed....and in that case rather be mediocre. I'd see your point if all the people grubbing after money were actually making the nation function....but it is a long time since the UK has functioned as a nation.

    I know that London didn't....and I see you are admitting that Brexit was about not having to implement the tax-havens directive. London didn't seem to agree with you.

    Don't you think it is sad that so much of UK GVA is dependent on money laundering and hiding tax money. Where is the value in that?

    At least I have morals...and my reality doesn't see it is acceptable that morals and ethics have no place in the UK today.
     
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  20. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    Remember how this mess came all about, Cameron, playing, gambling with the future of the UK, just to shut up the opposition in his own party and than just walking away, after it miss fired.
    Just like, oh well.
    Remember when he stood in front of # 10 telling the reporters that he is resigning, than turned , walked back into the house whistling a tune and than saying, that was not to bad.
    That is the attitude.
    Than came May, stumbling around, without having any idea what to do, send a bunch of amateurs to Brussels to negotiate with the elite negotiators in the world.
    No plan A or B or C.
    Why did she invoke article 50, without any preparations, in the UK and with the EU, without really understanding what this move means.
    Or May's general elections, throwing away a majority in this critical time.
    It all back fired ( like Cameron ) and than, oh well, Its Clown time.

    If you can explain that, all of it, than you have your answer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
  21. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    which is great but the rest of you post is a miasma of hackneyed soundbites and....well...I'm not sure what really....you are a Brit right??...I mean not some numpty American?
    I mean take this for example....
    ....you do know what Junker set up in Luxembourg right? I mean have you heard for example of the Luxembourg Papers?

    Mate....look....I'm not a supporter of people that rip off this country and am quite happy to see them that do strung up by their balls. However, one has to have an idea of how countries and finance works - banking, insurance, commodity transactions etc. etc. they make countries work...its how commerce works. Commerce drives employment and creativity which allows industry to employ and create. Banks provide capital to industry and insurance provides balance sheet security and risk transfer. There are some very intelligent poeple out there that create these mechanisms and ideas. They create wealth....not only for themselves but for the country. There are some very good employers that look after their worker and there are some that go out of there way to screw them. Don't get roped into the narrative that suggests there is only black and white...the poor and the "rich" (god knows what your definition of rich is)....there are many many many shades of grey. If your sole narrative is an "us and "them" then fine carry on with your though process but it will blinker you to how the world works and how governments and industry function which is a shame as it's very interesting. Take a look at this phrase....
    ...is it...you know this for a fact then? Your sole view of the economy of London is based on a soundbite which I assume someone has provided you with? The total economic output of London is purely based on "money laundering and hiding tax money"....excellent....naive and laughable...

    I'm quite happy to "moralise" with you on the ethics or the morality of the meritocracy....how would you frame your position where would you like to begin....over to you...
     
  22. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    well it is looking like Hedge funds may have something to do with it and they love making money out of market chaos and disasters.

    Description
    From Part 1
    https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2019/07/11/boris-brexit-and-the-hedge-funds-part-1/

    You'll need to read the rest and

    Part 2 https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2019/07/22/boris-brexit-and-the-hedge-funds-part-2/


    At one point he mentions that the Hedge Funds are in a battle with Centrist Banks.

    Oddquine, seems pretty near where it is at.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
  23. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ah well Boris making friends

    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...0-insists-eu-must-scrap-backstop-before-talks

    Everyone I have heard speaking about this says that in the end it will be May's deal with a couple of full stops changed which he will bring and will be passed in Parliament.
     
  24. Boosewell

    Boosewell Active Member

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    Everyone I have heard speaking about this says that in the end it will be May's deal with a couple of full stops changed which he will bring and will be passed in Parliament.

    I can't see why. All Boris has to do is keep the pot boiling until 31 October 2019 and we will leave the EU automatically.
     
  25. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They will just call a General Election if it gets near that. A general election is what a lot of people think he is going for even though he claims not. Channel 4 had a good interview on this which I cannot find but will put in if I do.
     

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