Brexit's happened, so why no border on the island of Ireland?

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by The Rhetoric of Life, Mar 5, 2020.

  1. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    It should be case closed; EU one side, UK another; EU pays for the border because the UK doesn't want a border and for all intents and purposes, will be an EU border for their single market.

    Northern Ireland's a part of the UK, Republic of Ireland's in the EU; so why make the border down the Irish Sea cutting off NI from GB down the UK?
    We should take the EU to court and sue them so at least the EU pays a certain amount of billions to the UK for cutting the UK up.
    Didn't anybody stop and think about the British?
    That's why I'm all for the EU putting a border on the island of Ireland paid for by the EU since it's their border.

    People who think there cannot be Brexit without a border could be right for all I care, but the days of no Brexit are over, so this could mean the days of no border are over too.

    UK leaving the EU has created the need for an external border.

    I mean, I get it; the DUP's position was devalued since the December 2019 election so it's been made easier to do a u-turn on the promise to treat NI like the rest of the UK, but why must DUP suffer for Ireland's need?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  2. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    The withdrawal agreement specified customs checks between Britain and NI instead, so no border in Ireland, Good Friday etc. Could see a united Ireland at some point.
     
  3. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    It also contained a political declaration which isn't going to happen.

    I dare say, since the EU held the keys to Brexit, UK had to say whatever the EU wanted to hear so they could release the UK (but now Brexit's done, the EU no longer holds the keys to Brexit); why can't NI being cut off be like the political declaration with the EU? (a red line that the UK could never implement because of Brexit).

    They made changes to the political declaration, so make changes to the Irish Backstop that states if the EU needs an external border, then it's for Ireland and the EU to worry about building one between the UK and the EU.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2020/0214/1115354-ecj-jurisdiction/
    The ECJ won't have jurisdiction over the UK, so this shouldn't matter.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  4. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    I think it's already been decided and signed off. Why is it such a big issue for you?
     
  5. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't seem fair is all.
     
  6. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If it has, it means that the UK has broken the Good Friday Agreement that brought an end to a long running civil war.
    Responsibility for that is entirely on the UK - leaving the single market and customs union meant having a border, and the UK always knew it.

    If there is a border across the island of Ireland, we're ultimately likely to go back to the days of regular violence and bombings in the north (and, of course, that activity might spread once again to the mainland too).
    The border in Ireland really matters to the people there. The violence was only ended when the situation created by mutual EU membership allowed the border to disappear as a physical and visible barrier to movement - that was no coincidence.

    Those wanting to Remain in the EU were pointing this out as a hugely important issue all the way along. Those who were campaigning to leave dismissed it altogether, and denied that it was an issue at all - they were lying, as they were about so much else. As they were lying hen they said that they only wanted to leave the EU, not the single market and customs union, honest guv, right up until they won the referendum then used the old 'dictator's excuse me' of 'the will of the people' to pretend they had a mandate to do absolutely anything they wanted regardless of the promises and assertions they had made during the campaign, because they had won and that meant that nobody was allowed to challenge, criticise, question or hold them to account in any way any more.

    And now, of course, they are trying to blame it all on the EU - lying again.

    Because they don't care about anything apart from lining their own pockets and centralising authority on themselves. They don't care what violence may be suffered by the people of Northern Ireland, let alone the daily issues that might be created by customs checks and the like, just as they don't care about the effects on real lives from crashing the economy by doing something as catastrophically stupid as leaving the most mutual successful trading organisation in world history without even having a deal. They don't care, because everyone else's suffering means money and power for themselves, and if that means other people die over previously solved border disputes that they have just managed to unsolve for no good reason, so be it as far as they are concerned.

    See also Gibraltar.
     
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  7. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    errmmm...you keep going on about this group.... the "theys" who exactly are these "theys" you are going on about?

    These "theys"
    want to line their pockets.....with what?

    And these "theys" want to
    centralise what authority?

    Ah and also these "theys"
    Well Taff, I mean them "theys" are just such nasty little bunny rabbits....and

    ...nasty....NASTY little bunnies....these "theys"? Its' watership down all over again.....nasty little things

    ...ahhhh you are a fortune teller then...Punxsutawney Taff....cool....can YOU give me the lottery numbers for the weekend then!

    Well apart from that...sheesh....you've convinced me
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  8. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    Brexit happened. - Also, a civil war is between one country; and the border is between 2 countries, also, it's just a sectarian conflict between Catholics and Protestants, which in my opinion is one of the dumbest things to war over; which version of Christianity is superior.
    So?
    UK is UK, what UK does is up to the UK. If Ireland didn't want a border on the island of Ireland, they shouldn't have broke away from the UK; UK had every right to leave the EU; If the EU needs to put up an EU border, that's EU's business; It will be the EU who'd be breaking the GFA, why should UK have to have the EU control part of it?

    Don't you get that?

    You're thinking the UK's guilty of leaving the EU and somehow Ireland's the victim for having a border; What if having no border upsets the British, would this be okay? Ireland should do whatever the EU and UK want; and if they resort to some conflict, then we need to patrol the border; it's called law and order; we shouldn't cower to Irish people who hate borders and feel the UK shouldn't include Northern Ireland, that's just anti British sentiment; we should respect the EU and the UK and not try to take any parts of it.
    Still, Republic of Ireland decided to leave the rest of the UK, what happens on the island of Ireland is their responsibility.

    Also, you mentioned Gibraltar, that's offensive to me; to suggest UK isn't allowed to have Gibraltar or something; again, anti British racism to say UK shouldn't have Gibraltar.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  9. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    If nobody sticks up for the UK or our right to leave the EU, then I will.
    Brexit, is UK's choice, and we should all respect this; people voted to leave the EU, not break up the country.
     
  10. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's not complicated to work out. The group who promoted Brexit, and lied about Brexit, and used Brexit as an excuse to gain power for themselves.

    The group within and outside the Conservative Party, with links to the populist 'alt right', and the money speculators who will win big by essentially betting on the UK economy failing. The group who want to slash the rights of ordinary people, and turn the UK into a tax haven for the wealthy with low regulations so that they can return us to the days when workers were cheap and desperate and the wealthy corporate masters have complete control and can do whatever they want (and own the government, creating one party rule by further breaking an already broken electoral system, politicising the courts and media under their own influence, and denouncing any opposition as 'traitors' and 'enemies of the people'). The group that want to create a corrupt sweatshop economy to benefit themselves.

    Johnson, Gove, Cummings, Rees-Mogg.... that group.

    That's what Brexit has always been about.
     
  11. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's just one obvious symptom of a conflict with a much deeper history going back several centuries. It isn't 'just' about that at all.

    It certaintly wasn't the Irish who decided to partition the island and leave one part of it in the hands of the UK.

    I'd suggest looking again at the history of Ireland, of its independence, of partition, and of what that whole Northern Ireland and border situation is about (and why it is so complicated and difficult to solve).

    What nonsense. It's equally offensive to the Spanish to suggest that it shouldn't be part of Spain, but that's not the point. I didn't mention anything about the ownership of Gibraltar either way, of course - the context was about borders, and the fact that mutual membership of the EU allowed a previously closed border to be opened. If it gets closed again the effects on Gibraltar, its people and its economy would be massive - Gibraltar is very small, and a lot of its economy is supported directly by free open movement across the border (tens of thousands of people cross that border every day), with many skilled people living in Gibraltar working across the border in Spain, and also workers (particularly 'unskilled') crossing the other way (not to mention their reliance on getting stuff like food across the border). Close the border, or create delays in crossing with border checks, and doing that is no longer viable. The UK and Spain have been in dispute over Gibraltar for a very long time - in the same way as in Ireland, it's only the mutual membership of the EU that allowed the border to be opened so that tiny Gibraltar could thrive.

    These are very real and practical issues for the populations of those places, just being ignored in the nationalist fervour to try to claim the term 'Great Britain' as something other than a simple geographical one (which is all it is, and all it ever has been'). A nationalist delusion based on a rose tinted and backwards view of 'the Empire' that has no relevance to the modern world, determined to push everything towards maximum isolation while the rest of the world benefits by doing the opposite. Even in the current health situation we can easily see how obviously stupid it is - refusing to engage with the European organisations trying to formulate responses to a potential pandemic situation, because they're European and we're British.

    And had there not been the lies, this wouldn't have happened. Even in leaving the EU, if we'd done so in the way that the leave campaigns actually said we would before and during the referendum campaign, we wouldn't be in this mess now. It was only afterwards they declared the result as a mandate to not only leave the EU itself (which we could have done without all these problems), but to also do the opposite of what they'd been campaigning on and also leave the customs union, single market, and even court systems and other organisations that were nothing to do with the EU at all, but just had 'European' in the title. We could have left the EU easily without causing any problems in NI or Gibraltar - we could, as leave campaigners like Farage often said we should, have been 'like Norway' (not in the EU, but in customs union and single market). There is no potential gain to what is being done, apart from to the very, very wealthy. There are huge and completely unnecessary problems and costs.

    If it wasn't so serious, it would almost be laughable, particularly in the context of those very, very wealthy people declaring themselves to be against 'the elite'. And people actually believing it - believing that the likes of Rees-Mogg and Johnson were somehow 'for the people' and 'against the elite'. Totally bizarre, but bizarre and highly damaging to the UK. The whole thing is a con, and it's going to cost many livelihoods, and quite possibly also lives, and ultimately very possibly also mean the end of the UK itself. But not doubt none of that matters, because 'we're British', and anything that goes wrong as a result of what we ourselves are doing will all somehow be the fault of 'foreigners' anyway.
     
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  12. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Brexit has been agreed but we're in a transition period so nothing is going to change in practice until the end of the year.

    Northern Ireland was a complex topic impossible to resolve even before Brexit was thrown in to the mix. There are many different parties and interested groups who all want different contradictory things (sometimes internally contradictory too). They were never going to reach a conclusion that would make everyone happy so had to seek a least worst compromise. There has been some level of agreement on what that will be but I'm sure there will be a whole load of further discussions over the details and practicalities.
     
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  13. Boosewell

    Boosewell Newly Registered

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    Quite.

    In 1912 the Home Rule was proposed for Ireland because the British were good and decent people and because, despite centuries of effort, no one had ever succeeded in extracting any serious money from the Micks. There continued to be a serious lack of money until a few decades ago when the Irish decided to stop raising spuds and started cultivating foreign investment.

    The Irish Republic now wallows in gold and now wants a decent health service and affordable housing. Why it should want union with Ulster, with its thuggish politics, medieval religions and non existent economy is beyond the wisdom of any rational being, but they do and as such the North should be dumped on the South before the Micks change their minds.
     
  14. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    Hi mate, without wishing to sound crass in any way but personally I really couldn't give a leprechaun's fart for the Irish, their country, their borders or anything else Irish whatsoever. The only thing of any interest that came out of Ireland (Northern) was Game of Thrones but that's done so.....fcuk them and their fkucing country...both bits of it.
     
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  15. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    okay...so elected politicians you mean? So what is the purpose of the party system of UK politics then...not to be elected...???

    I liked the rest....was a good read....reminded me of Wolfie Smith.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Boosewell

    Boosewell Newly Registered

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    Ah Emila Clarke :floating:

    But as you say, apart from her, what is the fuss about?
     
  17. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    Which has got nothing to do with Brexit.
    Honestly, the Irish are acting like opportunists.
    That's a history that quite honestly offends me. Love the Irish, but it's a two state island, not a one state island.
    Maybe you should learn British History and how Gibraltar is controlled by the UK; it no doubt was won in some war to put the British in the Med'
    Yeah, no, even in David Cameron's day Spain reverted back to their Fascists roots (because let's face it, the EU is full of 20th century history that is backward and offensive to democracy) and closed the border, EU or no EU, they reverted back to their Franco logic and closed the border. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23482549
    Where was EU's freedom of movement then?
    Spain should have been sued by the EU for stopping freedom of movement in 2013 if you feel that way about the mutual EU membership mattering but in 2013, that didn't stop the spawn of Fascists closing the border even before UK knew it was going to vote on EU membership; so there was no notion of UK not being in the EU at all, and Spain still decided to act like Franco.
    They closed the border and outlawed abortions too; so, it's wasn't just an offense to Gibraltar, but for Spain's progressive attitude in Spain when they turned back the clock and reverted back to their Fascist culture.

    If it were up to me, Gibraltar would remain in the EU to keep Brits in the EU so we could Brexit and still have Gibraltar in the EU; but nobody listens to me and for some *******n reason UK left the EU and Gibraltar got classified as UK so had to go too.

    Newsflash, Gibraltar isn't a part of the UK, so when UK left the EU, I don't see why British dependencies outside of the UK inside the EU all of a sudden get treated like it's UK.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
  18. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    Did you know, that Argentina and Latin American dictators alike only exist because of Spanish Fascism?
    It's no coincidence that Nazis fled to Latin America.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
  19. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Tooting Broadway y'know.

    I thought their claim to fame was Jimmy White.


    Sorry, back on topic;

    NI is the UK; if NI remain in the EU, then UK should have the best of both worlds.

    I say take back NI though, and keep Gibraltar in the EU; I literally feel trouble would come if NI gets annexed against its will because of some Irish/EU agenda.

    Let's not piss off the Irish so we piss off the Brits? No; I say NI should start attacking the EU with bombs and force the EU to treat NI like UK.
    If some Irishman will bomb if a border, then some Northern Irishman ought to bomb for no border.
    It's offensive to suggest NI should be ROI against its will or controlled by the EU when UK left; people who say no border or no Brexit can't say no Brexit since Brexit happened; so, I'm all for stopping the Irish backstop to make sure every part of the UK is given the same opportunity.

    If UK and US sign a trade deal, will NI be tied to the EU?
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
  20. philosophical

    philosophical Active Member

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    Wow. Anti-irish racists are emboldened now.
    What is laughable is that the UK has voted for brexit and also signed up to the Good Friday Agreement.
    If the UK has the 'right' to brexit, it also has the 'right' but also the agreed obligation to uphold the Good Friday Agreement.
    What is offensive is if the UK reneges on the international treaty it signed up to.
     
  21. Boosewell

    Boosewell Newly Registered

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    Not really. It is more a case of being indifferent.

    My aunt kept chickens and in the nature of things ended up with a small hill of manure.
    In the morning she would unlock the hen house and the chickens would pour out, scratching and pecking and race to see who would be first to climb the manure heap. And the one who made it would cluck and flap her wings and act terribly pleased while the other birds would throw terrible strops and then run up and knock the first chicken over.

    This would go on all day and we would watch amused but at the same time we would wonder what the fuss was about. After all, they were only fighting over a pile of crap.

    To quote The Scotsman, most Brits don't give a leprechaun's fart over Ireland, north or south.
     
  22. philosophical

    philosophical Active Member

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    As I say, old fashioned tiresome anti Irish plain racism.
    No need to deny it, be immersed.
    I was born in Kent, it is an accident of birth that I am associated with evil British racists, however I try to push back against the racists in the land of my birth.
     
  23. Boosewell

    Boosewell Newly Registered

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    Well there you are. However bad things are the Plastic Paddies can always fall back on the race card.
     
  24. philosophical

    philosophical Active Member

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    Yeah right.
    Sheesh.
     
  25. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Well-Known Member

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    I wonder what we'd call ourselves (UK) if we ever followed Ireland and became a republic, peacefully of course..

    Can't call it United Kingdom if it's a republic.
    United something, since we are 4 portions making a whole.
    United Brexit.

    RENAME THE COUNTRY BOATY MCBOAT FACE - sudden rush of insperation there, but, if UK became a republic, would it effect the average Brit's standard of living? and... What would we ever call ourselves?
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020

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