Can someone give me a reason why we should increase spending on the military?

Discussion in 'Security & Defenses' started by jbander, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    We absolutely demand that any country we invade have a democracy. And clearly that does not work for every country. Some countries are just not ready for democracy. But we also ensure those countries remain loyal to the US. And that is my point from a military perspective. We are the aggressors currently. We know that eventually we are going to lose being the economic leader of the world. That will be china. I think it is better just to accept it rather than drive us into bankruptcy trying to have a military that can rule the world
     
  2. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because of the military chain of command and somehow Valeria Jarrett believed she was part of the military chain of command.

    The word came down from the Obama White House that everyone will attend the mandatory politically correct diversity and sensitivity classes.
     
  3. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    BRAC's 3 and 4 were killers for the military and many communities across America.

    They closed down the Long Beach Naval Shipyard under BRAC . The LBNSY made a lot of money (Profits) , saved the taxpayers a whole lot of money and could handle any ship in the U.S. Navy and perform any job needed to be done except for one, it couldn't refuel a nuclear aircraft carrier.

    A lot of politics were involved between a private shipyard in San Diego and the Clinton administration.
    In the endgame LBNSY was deactivated and Clinton tried to turn over the LBNSY to the Chi-Coms PLA-Navy (COSCO) but conservatives stepped in and prevented the Chi-Coms from having their own naval base on the west coast.

    You can look at all of the bases that were deactivated or realigned under the 5 BRAC's here -> https://www.epa.gov/fedfac/base-realignment-and-closure-brac-sites-state

    Check out California.

    San Francisco was so anti military by the 1980's that neither the Navy or Army gave a **** about all of the bases that were closed in the Gay Bay. "If you hate us so much...fine we'll just leave." Even Sen. Feinstein was alarmed that the U.S. military was abandoning almost all of its bases, stations and depots in the San Francisco Bay area.

    When they decided to bring some of our troops home from Germany in the late 1990's there was no place to billet the units in the CONUS because so many large military installations were closed down under BRAC 1, 2, and 3 so the troops had to stay in Europe.

    Combat brigades today require large training bases large enough to maneuver on since the U.S. military adopted maneuver warfare during the 1980's.
    Not even Camp Pendleton today is large enough for training the 3 rifle regiments and it's support battalions of the 1st Mar Div. It keeps 29 Palms pretty busy now days.
     
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  4. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    When the hell did you join, 1970?

    I was making over $600 a month as an E-2 in 1983.
     
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  5. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    1966... I got out in 1970 so you had it just about right... Hazardous duty pay ( that is what Air Force non flying crew got in Vietnam instead of combat pay was @$60 per month. Stateside a carton of smokes was $1.80 or less. Beer (3.2) was cheaper than Coke ( soda).

    We did not make even enough to save for more than a junk old car until you made Airman First... Buck Sgt to buy something than actually ran for a whole month before breaking down.
    Military pay did not increase until after Vietnam and when we went into all volunteer force and after we reorganized to where the reserves and the Guard started to be used as a regular adjunct to regular forces.
     
  6. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's what we were paid back in 1969. -> file:///home/chronos/u-afd5b97d72021b3777c35ca44967ea9af11df0e0/Downloads/MilPayTable1969%20(1).pdf

    Combat pay was $65 per month.
     
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  7. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    During a recent BRAC we had to fight for the D.C. Idiots not to close the Sub Base at Groton- NewLondon. New London base was the only Northern cold water sub base that was close to the near Arctic Russian lanes of operation. There was and still is Norfolk but I do not remember if they closed thecSubBase facility in Charleston SC. New London is the Naval Sub School.
    We used to have a string of ADC bases or at least an ADC squadron at a MAC or SAC base along the East coast from Maine to Florida. Soviet bombers are not the threat that they once were but we did whole sale closings.

    Then during the last BRAC we went to the Joint Base concept. McCord Air Force base and Fort Lewis became Joint Base Lewis McCord. Randolph AFB got combined with whatever the Army post was. Avalnairvstations got closed and even weapons research facilities got their balls cut off.

    We may never know how much of te RAC was revenge by a POTUS !
    Trump did not do well in New England will he screw us out of our last full operational military base during the next Brac!?!??,?,..,
     
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  8. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    You are correct I did make $65 extra every month in Vietnam at first then itvwas $70. I got a stripe while in Vietnam.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
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  9. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are both Republicans and Democrats in Congress who hate that word "BRAC."

    So many cities and communities livelihoods are dependent on those military bases in their communities and without them they die.

    There are more than a few who blame BRAC #1 under G.H.Bush (41) deactivating Norton Air Force Base in San Bernardino and the results weren't pretty, the city of San Bernardino, Ca. became a shithole city after closing Norton which was a MATC base.

    George AFB was also deactivated under BRAC #1 which was a USAF TAC base and with the realignment of March Air Force Base which was a SAC base under BRAC #3, (Clinton) no more B-52's but no interceptors/fighters for the air defense of Southern California.
     
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  10. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was able to save a whole lot of money while in Vietnam.

    I could get by on $10 per month.

    Since DaNang and villages were off limits to all Marines there wasn't too many places to spend money which was actually script.
    There was "Dog Patch" just west of the DaNang Air Base with bars and prostitutes and that was it.

    A carton of smokes was $1.10 and the only thing else you had to buy was the Tobasco sauce for the C-Rats, soap, toothpaste and razors.
     
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  11. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes you also saw that the now defunct ADC bases / squadrons got scrudded. The AF was realigned and there is no more ADC( Air Defense Command ) or TAC ( Tactical AirvCommand) now the Air Combat Comand, SAC became the Global Strike Command the new one is the AF Special Operations Command , and AF Space Command.

    So some of the old commands such as SAC, TAC, MAC live under new names. I do not see where the functions of the old ADC are still functioning. I know that we do not expect thousands of Russian Bear or Bison bombers to come over the horizon but there are other threats and how snout the Chi Coms!!!
     
  12. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    I was South of you at Phu Cat , East of Pleiku near Qui Ngohn. For some reason in 1969 I was mistaken I thought smokes were $1.20. What year were you there?
    Chivas Regal Scotch was $2.20 a bottle and Shmirnov Vodka was only $1.80.

    I had it calculated out that I would have been able to buy a 1970 Mercury Cougar with the money I saved IF I made it the entire year.
    I lost an argument with a Vietnam Cong 80mm mortar round so I was shorted and had to settle for a Mercury Montego. Which BTW some Communist telephone pole jumped out and hit me and totaled my Montego of less than 6 months old. I had to replace it with a Mercury Cyclone a Montego sports model 351 cube Cleveland and pay higher insurance rates just because of that telephone that did stay where it was planted.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
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  13. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    Wow is criminal. I am usually on top of those things but stopped getting Air Force Times newspaper sometimes after after 2007 or so.
     
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  14. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The state Air National Guard primary mission is the air defense of the CONUS.

    During the over downsizing of the military during the Clinton administration many of those ANG fighter squadrons were deactivated.

    On the morning of 9-11-01 there was only one Cal ANG squadron of 19 F-16's all based out of some ANG base near Fresno to defend the entire California air space and put up a CAP over California.
    Couldn't be done.
    (Before the Clinton downsizing there were more than one Cal. ANG fighter squadrons one that was based out of March AFB.)


    There were no USAF fighter squadrons in all of California the closest being in Arizona.

    The air defense of the CONUS isn't the job of the U.S. Navy, Marine Corp or even the active duty Air Force but the Air Guard.

    So on 9/11 Marine FA-18's from the 3rd MAW at MCAS Miramar had to put up a CAP over SoCal while a Nimitz class carrier that was tied up to the wharf at North Island NAS in San Diego was actually able to put to sea with in 24 hours and the carrier's air wing FA-18 that all were based in northern California and northern Nevada had to fly hundreds of miles to the carrier that went on station off the southern California coast to put up a CAP over SoCal.
     
  15. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I remember $1.10 a carton.

    Maybe the base CO put a .10 cent tax on smokes to support the base officers club ??? ;)
    Wouldn't surprise me.

    It seems that officers and SNCO's had no problem getting their hands on the hardstuff.

    The southern boys always seem to be able to get their hands on bourbon.

    I hanged with the rock and rollers.
     
  16. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    We in Connecticut lost our A-10 Flying Yankees Squadron the 103rd 4 or 5 years ago. Our ANG flies the C-130 Herky which I worked on but the Soviet Tank buster was a much cooler Aircraft. We were supposed to get F-16's but got screwed out of that.

    I can understand the new organization of guard units being responsible for COSUS protection but there justbare not enough of them on either of the three coasts. Guard units also fly the majority of the transport and refuel missions those must be strained.

    We did over cut and just as our people F-Up royally and missed that the USSR was collapsing we also F- up and did not see that Russia with Putin either as Prez or as PM was a dangerous enemy and is moving Russia to a position to cganllenge us. China is building it's Blue Water navy and they are going to be a dangerous vicious enemy.

    We should not. E cutting our military when two dangerous enenemies are
    snarelling theirvteeth at us. I do not care how much Putin smiles at Trump Putin is out tonrebuid his Russian empire and gain more.
     
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  17. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I got my Scotch and Vodka from the NCO club once I made Buck Sgt. Still thatvwas the lowest of low as a Sgt so the Zebras Master and Chief Sergeants did not like the fact that we were let into "their" club.
    Yes there was a surcharge !!
     
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  18. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I concur.
     
  19. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    My biggest problem with the entire BRAC process is twofold.

    First, it was that they pretty much gave the bases away. That is incredibly short-sighted. Once given away, those bases could never be reclaimed if they were ever needed again.

    In the past, bases would be mothballed. Turned over to a small unit to watch over them, and largely used for training guard and reserve units. But if needed, turned right back into full blown bases again.

    Fort Rucker was opened as Camp Rucker in 1942. Mothballed in 1945 after the war was over, it was reactivated again in 1950 for the Korean War. It once again was used as a training base until 1954 when it was closed yet again. Finally it was reactivated in 1955 as the home of Army Aviation in 1955.

    Even more interesting is Camp Parks. Built in 1943 as a Navy base, it was closed in 1946. In 1951 it was opened as Parks Air Force base to provide basic training for airmen. It was closed again in 1956. Then reopened yet again by the Army in 1959 where it was designated as a MOB-DEMOB facility. In 1973 it was transferred to the Army Reserve to function as their main training base in the Bay area. It is primarily the home for the Western Army Reserve medical units today.

    I have no problem with closing bases that are not used, but simply giving them away is stupid. Because if we ever do need to increase our military again, we never have that base to use again. And that has cost us money, like when units after the Cold War were brought back to the US, and had no home for years. It took almost a decade and billions of dollars to prepare Fort Bliss to handle the 1st Armored Division when it returned from Germany.

    Then secondly, we have communities which completely FUBAR the process of accepting a base in the first place. Some do a damned good job with some bases, like Sacramento. McClellan Air Force Base is a thriving community, with many businesses and individuals living on the old base. And they still have the commissary and exchange for people in the area. But at the same time, Sacramento Army Depot is still mostly empty land that has not been repurposed to this day.

    Then you have the other examples. Vallejo has mismanaged Mare Island from day 1. Destroying all of the enlisted housing, stating that it was "substandard" to be used as low income housing. They were hoping to get a huge government grant to build new units, which never came. And ironically they sold off the actual "substandard housing" that was located off of the main post, and it is now a very expensive condo complex. Most of the historic buildings have burned or been destroyed by homeless, and even the shipyard is no longer able to function after over 20 years of neglect (one gentleman I talked to there said the drydocks would cost billions to refit, nobody under 70 understands how the system there works anymore).

    El Toro MCAS is another. Turned over to Orange County so they could move the small and badly placed John Wayne Airport, the citizens afterwards complained they did not want the noise of aircraft and instead it is being turned into a park. So JWA remains one of the most dangerous airports in the country, but the uber-rich have a nice park.

    Finally you have Treasure Island. Once a Navy base in the middle of the San Francisco Bay, city planners want to literally level the entire base (other than the 2 buildings the Navy registered before they vacated in 1991. They only want buildings along the East and South side, the rest turned over to a park and farmland.

    Oh, and among the expenses of this project are 2 new fire stations and a police station. Even though the base already has 2 fire stations and the old Navy firefighting school. And not only the old SP building, but the old Navy Brig. But they are located in areas of the island they want to turn into a park.

    And the planned park will be over 300 acres. On an island that is only a little over 550 acres in size.

    [​IMG]

    Since the 1990's BRACs, I have seen most bases I had served on or visited turn to absolute crap. 2 Naval hospitals were completely destroyed. Barracks only 10-20 years old left empty for decades until they had to be destroyed. The only reason my first duty station is still alive is because it is a White Elephant for the Navy. With Long Beach closed it no longer has a mission, but it is a National Wildlife Refuge, so even if they closed it they can not do anything with the land.
     
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