Can Sub launched ballistic missiles be launched while the sub is on the surface?

Discussion in 'Nuclear, Chemical & Bio Weapons' started by Dayton3, Sep 27, 2017.

  1. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    A common saying for Soviet Delta IV and Typhoon class SSBNs was that the range of their missiles was so great they could launch them "while sitting dockside" and hit the United States..
    Of course less often said was the same about the American Ohio class submarines and their Trident II D-5 missiles.

    But can an SSBN really launch an SLBM while on the surface? I was under the impression that to launch a missile the submarine ejected it with a huge blast of compressed air that formed a bubble around it and floated toward the surface until it was well clear of the submarine.

    I wouldn't think you could do that without a substantial amount of water covering the missile deck.
     
  2. Kash

    Kash Member

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    True, Russia is ahead in liquid fuel engines, US is ahead in solid fuel. Russians win in range, thrust and capacity, US wins in miniaturization and operational safety.

    Not entirely, nothing is “floating”, the pneumo system or gas engine just shoot the missile through water like a harpoon. Upon reaching certain distance from the sub, the system checks if the distance and angles are OK and fires the main engine. No technological obstacles to launch above water. I presume safety is the major concern, in case the missile fails to start the engine and falls down. But when the ww3 will start, you can forget about safety regulations.
     
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  3. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Makes sense.

    There's more resistance launching a missile under water than on the surface when using compressed air to launch the rocket.

    Going back to WW ll and American PT boats. Originally black powder charges were used to launch the torpedo. Eventually they switched to using compressed air, but not because what you would would think.

     
  4. MMC

    MMC Well-Known Member

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    I thought we could launch one from the surface. Don't know what type of missile.
     
  5. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    I don't know why you would want to.
     
  6. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Interesting, sub launched ICBM's don't use compressed air per sey to launch the missile but steam.

    So to be able to launch a missile on the surface the missile tube would have to be flooded with water I suppose.

     
  7. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Why would you the sub normally would launch, dive deep and run its easier underwater.
     
  8. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Nuclear war suddenly breaks out and your missile submarine is still tied up to the dock.
     
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  9. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    It probably wouldn't even have missiles on board if it's still in dock when the nuclear phase of a war breaks out.
     
  10. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good response.

    During the 60's and 70's the December 7th 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor was still fresh in the minds by most.

    Might have been late 1970 or early 71 we were aboard the Long Beach Naval Station to conduct a communication exercise on the Mole.

    LBNS in size is small but was the home port for 100 ships including eight aircraft carriers 4 X CVS and 4 X Essex class LPH's and is one of the only three ports on the west coast deep enough for an Iowa class battleship. San Diego Bay is to shallow to accommodate large battleships like the Iowa's.


    I was present when the LBNS conducted a "call to arms" drill. Might have been 50 or 60 ships mostly destroyers tied up to the docks and wharf's. I was over on the Navy Mole and don't know if they played "Call to Arms" over on the base PA system.

    Don't know about the Army but back then recorded bugle calls were still used in the Marine Corps and Navy.



    But you could hear all of the ship's klaxons blasting away with "general quarters."



    Pretty impressive with almost every ship going to general quarters.

    All of the ship's guns were rotating and pointing to the sky. Those ships (cruisers and destroyers) that had SAM's, Terrier AA missile, the Terriers came sliding out of their magazines on to the twin launchers then rotating and pointing to the sky while the Marines ashore from the Marine Barracks were securing the perimeter of the base.

    Back then it was "Remember Pearl Harbor...NEVER AGAIN"
     
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  11. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If the Democrats now controlled the president at the time of Pearl Harbor, Japan could have told us outright "we are going to attack Pearl Harbor" sending video of their aircraft carriers, and they would claim its just bluster and declare we dare do nothing or we'd start a war. That is their attitude towards the foreign minister of N. Korea informing that is a CERTAINTY that Kim Jung Un is going to attack the USA - which me soon will have or may already have the ability to do. It seems most Democrats are of the opinion that ONLY after numerous American cities are obliterated, millions of Americans dead and the USA's economy also obliterated, can we respond to a declaration of war including specifically against our civilians.

    Even after such an attack, I am certain that many Democrats would demand no retaliation because if he did Kim Jung Un might keep attacking more.

    Sounding general quarters in many of their opinions is provocative and mean we would be responsible for our being attacks. Only by being perfectly defensive and none response are we not responsible for our being attacked.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
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  12. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    And every single one of those ships would have been killed when an SS-7 detonated above the harbor a few minutes later.
     
  13. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Except for the fact that Japan had actually launched a war of aggression against its neighbors only a few years earlier and had always stated that it had imperialist aims in Asia that included seizing control of territories that would have necessitated war with America.

    But by all means, continue your false equivalence.
     
  14. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Give me a link to 10 Democrats that think that. I guarantee you can't.
     
  15. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Have no idea what a S-7 is.

    If you are referring to the SS-N-7, it's sub sonic.

    Back in the day the L.A. metropolitan area was surrounded by the "Ring of Steel" of 16 Nike missile batteries. One being only a few miles to the west on LBNS.

    Nike Sites of the Los Angeles Defense Area
    The Ring of Supersonic Steel


    [​IMG]

    This L.A. Defensive Area Map

    Rings of Supersonic Steel



    [​IMG]

    Location Notes
    LA-04 Mt. Gleason (Palmdale-Pasadena)/1954-(1959)-1974/1B, 2C/HIPAR
    IFC-Located in the Angeles National Forest, 9.8 miles west of the Mill Creek Forest Station.
    L&A-Located in the Angeles National Forest, 6.8 miles west of the Mill Creek Forest Station.
    Both sites are currently used as correctional Facilities by Los Angeles County. The launch site magazines have been destroyed, but nearly all the other buildings remain.

    LA-09 Barley Flats-Mt. Disappointment/1955-1961/1B, 2C/ACQR
    IFC-Mt. Disappointment, at end of fire road L&A-Located in the Angeles National Forest, 2 miles North of Angeles Crest Highway at Barley Flats. Launch site magazines have been destroyed, the site is currently utilized by the L.A. County Sheriffs Dept. The Admin buildings remain in good shape. They were used as a probation camp until 1992. IFC site is currently used as a radio relay station, a couple of buildings and radar pads remain.

    LA-14 El Monte (Whittier Narrows)/1956-1959/2B/ACQR
    IFC-3600 Workman Mill Road. Located on the hill above the present Rio Hondo Police Academy.
    L&A-Located at 1200/1201 Potereo Road. The Admin site is currently a U.S. Army Reserve Center. The Launch area is located across Potereo Rd in Whittier Narrows Park (west of the tennis center) and is used as a County work yard. The IFC site has been destroyed and is now a radar relay station.

    LA-29 Brea (Puente Hills)/1955-(1961)-1971/1B, 2C/ABAR
    IFC-Located in the Puente Hills 5 miles up Site Drive off Central Avenue. L&A-Located in the Puente Hills approximately 5 miles up Site Drive off Central Avenue. This battery had an AN/FPS-71 and an AN/FPA-16 ABAR unit. These sites are currently Shell oil fields and are largely destroyed or buried.
    LA-32 Stanton (Garden Grove)/1956-(1958)-1974/2B /HIPAR
    IFC-Located at the corner of Katella (Peterson?) and Knott in the city of Stanton. L&A-Located at the corner of Knott and Chapman in Garden Grove. 11751 Western Ave. This site was evidently constructed for the protection of the Los Alamitos Naval Air Station located just west of the Site LA32 complex. IFC site destroyed, L&A site used by CAARNG.

    Fountain Valley/1956-1957/Temp site
    IFC-Located at Santa Ana Army Air Base (now John Wayne Airport). L&A-Located at Santa Ana Army Air Base

    RP-39 San Pedro Hill AFS (Z-39)/1950-1980/USAF-FAA
    R-Located on San Pedro Hill off Crest Road. This was a radar site only. This was a gap filler radar for Site LA-78Cand a NORAD radar site with an AN/FPS-27 unit. It was manned by both Army personnel and USAF 670th RS unit. This site still has a number of functioning radars used by the FAA and the Weather Service.

    LA-40 Long Beach Airport (Lakewood)/1958-1963/1B, 2C/ACQR
    IFC-Located at the Southwest corner of Spring and Clark Street at the Long Beach Airport.
    L&A-Located at the Southwest corner of the Long Beach Airport, near the intersection of Spring and Kilroy Airport Way. The IFC site has been destroyed for a hotel development. The Launch site was used for a number of years as an emergency communications facility for Long Beach city departments. It was recently destroyed during the construction of the Kilroy office complex. The Admin area remains in use by the CAARNG, but is scheduled for development.

    LA-41 Long Beach (Signal Hill)/1959-1974/HQ
    H-Located at 2200 Redondo Road. The site was the HHB for the 4th Brigade of the 251st ADA (CNG). Now it is used by the California Army National Guard 240th Signal Battalion, and for the Support Facilities of the 40th Division.

    LA-43 Ft. MacArthur-White Point/1956-(1961)-1974/2B/HIPAR
    IFC-Constructed on top of Battery Leary-Merriam on the Fort MacArthur Upper Reservation.
    L&A-The facility is located directly below Battery No. 127. The Admin area was built in 1963.
    The HIPAR power room with its commanding view of the Los Angeles Harbor at the IFC site, has been converted for use by the Marine Exchange. The generator and the operations control buildings are being utilized by the Angels Gate Cultural Center as artist studios. The various tower pads are in a state of general disrepair, but all are present except the HIPAR tower. The launch area at White Point is currently abandoned and sealed shut, the buildings remain but have been heavily vandalized. The administrative area was destroyed some years ago and the area developed for USAF housing.

    LA-45 Fort MacArthur/1952-1974/AADCP
    H-located on Pacific Ave. between 22nd St and 36th St. in San Pedro. The site contained the HQs for the Los Angeles Defense Area- the 47th ADA BDE (1952-1969), the 108th AD Group (1956-58) and later the19th ADA Group (1969-1974). It was also the site of the HHB of the 3rd battalion of the 57th ADA and after 1968, the HHB of the 1st battalion of the 56th ADA. It was the location of the area's Missile Master (AN/FSG-1), and Missile Mentor (AN/TSQ-51) command centers and was connected to the NORAD communication net which had an AN/FPS-27 (FAA) radar unit and two AN/FPS-6 radar units. The site is now owned by the USAF. The Nike Headquarters Building 550 has been demolished.

    LA-55 Palos Verdes-Pt. Vicente/1956-(1958)-1974/2B/ABAR
    IFC-Located at the southeast corner of Crenshaw and Seacrest Drive, Rancho Palos Verdes.
    L&A-Located between Hawthorne and Palos Verdes Drive, southeast of the Rancho Palos Verdes City Hall. This battery had an AN/FPS-71 and an AN/FPA-16 ABAR radar unit. The IFC site has been destroyed and is now Del Cerro Park. The launch site is now the maintenance yard for the city of Rancho Palos Verdes and the administrative site is used as RPV City Hall.

    LA-57 Torrance-Redondo Beach/1956-1963/1B, 2C/ACQR
    IFC-Located at 1102 Camino Real, Redondo Beach. L&A-Located behind 25225 Crenshaw Blvd. at the east end of Torrance Airport. Launch area magazines are being used by the City of Torrance Fire Department; the all the L&A buildings have been recently destroyed. The IFC site is now Hopkins Wilderness park, few concrete structures remain.

    LA-70 El Segundo-Hyperion/1956-1963/1B, 2C/ACQR
    IFC-Located at West Pershing, near LAX L&A-Located at 9014 Pershing Dr., Los Angeles. There were a total of 24 launchers at this combined launch site for both LA 70 and LA 73. The Admin area is currently the home of Jet Pets at 911 So. Falmouth Ave. The Launch area and all six magazines have been destroyed. The IFC site has also been obliterated.

    LA-73 Playa Del Rey-Hyperion/1956-1963/1B, 2C/ACQR
    IFC-Located at Manchester and Redlands. L&A-Located at 9014 Pershing Dr., Los Angeles.
    The L&A area was co-located with LA70. The IFC site is now apartments and commercial establishments.

    LA-78 Malibu (Santa Monica Mtns)/1954-(1959)-1974/1B, 2C/HIPAR
    IFC-Located at 24666 W. Saddle Peak Road off Piume Rd. L&A-Located at 1900 Rambla Pacifica.
    Both sites are now owned by the Dept. of the Interior. The IFC site has been extensively modified for use by various communications equipment and radars. The L&A site is currently leased by the Los Angeles County Fire Department. Most of the structures remain at the site, though they have been modified to some degree. The elevators still work on all three launch platforms.

    LA-88 Chatsworth-Oak Mountain/1956-(1959)-1974/1B, 2C/HIPAR, SMFU, RRIS
    IFC-Located on Oat Mountain. L&A-Located on Brown's Canyon Road. The IFC is now the site of numerous Los Angeles Country radio relay antennas and a PACTEL relay tower. The L&A site is under the control of the State of California and recently (1993) was the location of a California Conservation Corps (CCC) camp. Most of the Nike structures remain in good condition at both the IFC and L&A sites.

    LA-94 Los Pinetos-Newhall/1955-(1961)-1968/1B, 2C/ABAR
    IFC-Located in the Angeles National Forest off Sand Canyon Road. L&A-about 3 miles and 1 mile, respectively, from the IFC site. This battery had an AN/FPS-75 ABAR. The IFC and L sites are used by ITT Gilfillon as radar sites. The Admin site is used by LA County Fire Department.

    LA-96 Van Nuys-Sepulveda/1957-(1961)-1971/1B, 2C/ABAR
    IFC-Located on San Vicente Mountain next to Mulholland Dr. L&A-Located at 15990 Victory Blvd.
    This battery had an AN/FPS-75 ABAR. The IFC site is partially intact in San Vicente Mountain Park, the L&A site is largely intact and is used by the California Air National Guard. A section of the launch area is used by the Army National Guard.

    LA-98 Magic Mountain-Lang (Saugus)/1955-1963/1B, 2C/ACQR
    IFC-Located in the Angeles National Forest on top of Magic Mountain. L&A-Located south of State Highway 14 in Soledad Canyon (Lang Station). Though the battery was closed by 1963, the Admin area was used till the early 1970s. IFC site is now used as microwave relay. The L&A site is being used by a cement company and may be extensively modified.

    Pasadena Army Support Center/1950-1963/HQ
    H-located at 125 S. Grand Ave. in Pasadena. This site was the HQ for the 12th Artillery Group and the HHB of the 1st Battalion of the 56th ADA from 1956 to 1963. It is now a federal court building. The structures used for some of the Nike functions were located on the hillside behind the courthouse proper.

    http://www.ftmac.org/lanike3.htm
     
  16. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    SS-7 Saddler, a Soviet ICBM with a 5 megaton warhead.

    Nike missiles could not intercept ICBM’s.
     
  17. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's why the Nike's were deactivated.

    But at the time America was unaware that the Soviets nuclear strategy was that their ICBM would target American ICBM silos and that Russian bombers carrying nukes would target military installations and cities.

    So the Nike was prematurely deactivated.
     
  18. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Soviet ICBMs lacked the accuracy to hit silos until the late 70’s. Their entire ICBM Force was targeted on cities until the development of the SS-18 and even then only the SS-18’s and later missiles were targeted on silos.
     
  19. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It seems that the SS-7 Saddler had a problem with crashing or missing it's target.

    R-16 (6K64) and R-16U (6K64U) ICBM tech dossier: -> http://www.russianspaceweb.com/r16.html
     
  20. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Missing it's target by a few miles doesn't really matter when the target is a city or ships clustered in a harbor and it has a 5MT warhead.
     
  21. Kash

    Kash Member

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    I really have doubts about steam engine. Imagine you have a bucket of water and you need to turn it into steam, to achieve certain pressure, to do some “Work”. The problem is that you have basically 0.5 seconds
    and very limited in space. How do you plan to do it?
    The first answer is to burn a kilogram of gunpowder which will generate heat, which will turn water into steam. But why bother? A bucket of gunpowder will generate sufficient amount of gasses that will do the same “work” for you. Why mix it with water? Gunpowder only system is much more reliable. I have no idea. I can imagine a solution of fast burning some metals that should give the required heat in required time. But why bother? This solution is hundred times more costly than simple gunpowder, with the very same results but triple reliability…
    Probably water is used to “push” the missile? As a leaver in hydraulic systems? Or maybe they are mixing “Dry” and “Wet” launch methods, when the tube is either dry or filled with water prior to the launch (to equalize pressure before opening the hatch). No idea.

    Basically it is a missile base, mobile, dive capable. The longer is the “launch ready” mode, the better is your “return of investments”. And there is virtually no additional investments needed to add surface launch capability once you have made the underwater catapult capability. Imagine how much time your sub spends sitting in port waiting for small repairs, loading, just chilling :).
     
  22. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Any sub still in port by a time a war reaches its nuclear phase is going to be there because it was going through its overhaul cycle or because it needs serious repairs in dry dock.

    They aren't going to have live missiles on board in that condition.

    And missile subs capable of being put to sea, will be at sea long before a war goes nuclear.
     
  23. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Unless your trying to take out a missile silo, a few miles might make a difference.

    If it's a small yield tactile nuke on the battlefield, a few miles makes a big difference.
     
  24. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Which is why they didn't target their ICBMs at missile silos until the SS-18, which was very accurate.
     
  25. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Before Ronald Reagan became President the nuclear response to a nuclear attack by the USSR was the same as the Soviets.

    But Reagan went public announcing to the Ruskies, nuke America our response would be nuking your cities, the civilian population. The Ruskies gave it some thought.

    After the Cold War the new Russia Federation opened up some.

    Here's how the USSR would have conducted a nuclear attack and what targets would be nuked in the CONUS.

    The first Russian ICBM's and SLICB's would target our ICBM missile silos and USAF SAC bases.

    At the same time our boomers in the Pacific and the Atlantic would have been hunted down and eliminated.

    ANG bases that flew the F-103 that were based on the East coast, Gulf coast and the West coast would be targeted since their main mission was the air defense for the CONUS and to intercept and shoot down Russian Bear bombers with nuclear tipped AA missiles.

    The second salvo of ICBM's and Russian Bear bombers would target major military installations and the aerospace and the military industrial complex.

    During the 1990's a map was released showing what targets would have been nuked by the USSR. Chicago wasn't targeted but Detroit would be nuked because before NAFTA, Detroit was still alive.

    The city of El Segundo just north of LAX would have been nuked because that's where most of the nations aerospace industries were located. That nuke would also have taken out TRW that was just a few miles south at the corner of Marine Ave and Aviation Blvd.

    Burbank would have been nuked, that's where the Lockheed Skunk Works was located at the time. The Long Beach NSY and naval station would have been nuked. San Diego Bay would have been nuked and the Gay Bay in San Francisco would have been nuked.

    Interesting that Camp Pendleton wasn't on the target list but the Seal Beach NWS was for obvious reasons. Boeing in Seattle would have been nuked.

    Hawthorne, Nevada would have been nuked since it's the home of the largest ammunition depot in the world. Hundreds of other defense industries would have been nuked and major rail road hubs around the country would have been nuked.

    Washington D.C. would be spared so there was a functional government in place so that any pantywaist liberal President who didn't have any cajones to retaliate would sue for peace.
     

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