Can Sub launched ballistic missiles be launched while the sub is on the surface?

Discussion in 'Nuclear, Chemical & Bio Weapons' started by Dayton3, Sep 27, 2017.

  1. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    For less than a year.
     
  2. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Fielded is fielded Questerr.
     
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  3. Gatewood

    Gatewood Well-Known Member

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    I was on missile submarines many decades ago. Back then we had a small tank of water at the base of each missile tube. At the launch signal a charge would explode at the base of the tank, turning the water to compressed steam which would PUSH the missile out of its tube at high speed. So under water or on the surface it would make no mechanical difference. Of course the whole point is to use the cover of water to disguise your presence until the launch.
     
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  4. Gatewood

    Gatewood Well-Known Member

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    I was on the helm when our boomer 'drifted' at dead slow speed past a pack of Soviet quick attack subs and -- obviously -- they never heard us, but we certainly were able to hear them. Of course that was the late 1970s/early 1980s, and by now I am sure they have significantly improved their stealth technology as the Russian navy.
     
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  5. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I thought the capabilities of the current Russian Navy was considered significantly short of what they achieved near the end of the Cold War?
     
  6. Gatewood

    Gatewood Well-Known Member

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    I haven't kept up with that sort of thing. I just don't know. Back then they were -- in relative terms -- noisy as hell. But nowadays?
     
  7. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Wrong on both counts.

    The Spartan was a direct line descendant of Nike. When it was decided that the NIKE ZEUS system would be to complex and expensive (in addition to dangerous since it required nuclear warheads) it was canceled, and the NIKE-X program was started instead.

    And there was one other missile incorporated in the Safeguard system, that is the Sprint. Now while the Spartan was designed to be a kinetic contact kill weapon, they still had a fallback in the Sprint. This is also a direct line upgrade of the Nike Hercules and Zeus programs, relying on a thermonuclear warhead to kill by proximity rather than by contact.

    And both of them were indeed active, at the Stanley R. Mickelsen Safeguard complex, in North Dakota (which I quite specifically mentioned earlier). For about 6 months, from 1975-1976. This was in the Post-Vietnam era, when a great many programs were canceled and shut down.

    So yes, it is both a part of the Nike program, as well as fielded.

    And BTW, the PATRIOT missile? It is also part of the Nike system. At the same time that the Nike-X program was being created from the remains of the canceled Zeus program, a second program was created, the AADS-70s (Army Air Defense System for the 1970s). This was intended to utilize many of the same components of Nike-X, but instead in the creation of a mobile defense system.

    Later renamed to "SAM-D", Now in the 1960's and 1970's, the Nike Hercules did remain active since it was our largest "transportable" air defense system. But do not let that name fool you. Calling a Nike Battery "transportable" is kind of like calling a Commodore SX-64 a "laptop". It took days of prep by engineers to prepare a new launching site, and days to tear down the old site, move it then set it up again.

    PATRIOT on the other hand was designed for mobility. Tear down of a battery typically takes an hour, with transportation by standard Army heavy trucks. And set up also takes about an hour.

    But the main parts of the PATRIOT were directly taken from the Sentinel program. And this was a spin-off of the Nike.

    About 7 years ago I did several months at White Sands as part of an upgrade program test for the PATRIOT PAC-2 system. And the test location this was held at had a rather interesting history.

    Take a look at the following satellite image, and let me know if you notice anything interesting.

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/W...3ffcccac60bd4!8m2!3d33.2384902!4d-106.3463791

    Now today you can see things that were beyond Top Secret 40 years ago at your desk at home. But let me explain a bit about what you see here.

    Now this is the actual "birthplace" of the PATRIOT system. And if you look a bit to the Left, you see the birthplace of the Nike Hercules system. But this is about PATRIOT now.

    What this is was the original test and design location. And if you look closely, you can see 3 launchers and 2 HEMETT trucks used to tow them. Now if you notice, the trucks are sitting between 2 dark lines, with a building to the South-West. Those lines are actually widely spaced railroad tracks. And that building is actually mobile, built on the tracks to be moved. Just North and West there is a U shaped berm. Now look South and East a bit, you will see a smaller almost square building canted at an angle that looks darker on the NW section of it.

    Well, this is where the system was designed. That building with the dark front was the original RADAR facility (the front is actually at an angle). And the building on the railroad tracks was moved on and off of the test launcher to keep Soviet satellites from watching it's development. And the original life fire tests were conducted with the launcher in the U shaped berm.

    I had a lot of these suspicions while I was working there. I was the only one of our group old enough to remember the Nike system, and I started putting pieces together. Finally towards the end of our 3 month stay, I approached one of the oldest members of the contractor team and he let me give my hypothesis.

    And it was pretty much dead-on. At the end of Nike Zeus, half of the original team were then assigned to develop a new mobile missile system. They were originally intending on a rebirth of the Nike Ajax, but with a solid fuel missile. But after seeing the advances in phased array RADAR by the Sentinel team, they used it for the acquisition and targeting system. And being solid fueled and only a single stage it was able to be made smaller. And then later in design it was decided to place them inside of permanent transport containers.

    Over the years, I have talked to a lot of people who worked on Nike. One of my Sergeant Majors was actually originally a Nike Hercules operator in Germany back in the late 1970's when he first joined. At that time they knew of PATRIOT, and even then they considered it just a remade Ajax. And when the school at Fort Bliss changed over from teaching new soldiers PATRIOT instead of NIKE, there was no change in their MOS code.

    If you ever get a chance, you should visit one of the 2 NIKE launch site museums that are open to the public. They are quite fascinating.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
  8. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    IIRC Sprint had a five megaton enhanced radiation warhead that killed approaching missiles mainly by neutron burst
     
  9. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    Fortunately for us, the missle in question has a detectable signature on launch and travel and there are enough measures in place to deal with it.
     
  10. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Not in 1962.
     
  11. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not necessary 1962 but 1963.

    Close enough ?


    [​IMG]
     
  12. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    What party do you think control the Presidency during the time period of WW2 and for a decade or so before that time period for that matter????
     
  13. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but thanks to John Walker spies ring for decades the USSR have the cipher keys to all our secure communications to the missile boats.

     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  14. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Lehman (who was not an expert in submarine operations, far, far from it) was grossly exaggerating. For one being that American SSBNs don't stay in anything remotely like constant contact with their base during patrols.

    In fact their location is generally not known while on patrol to any more accuracy than a 100 mile radius box.
     
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  15. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    LOL having a spy/agent in the middle of the command and control of the missile subs is no big deal.

     
  16. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    Once more it is never a good idea to have a traitor in the command and control loop of a large percent of our nuclear weapons.

     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  17. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say that. I said Lehman was exaggerating (probably on purpose) the damage that Walker could do to immediate U.S. submarine operations. IIRC, Walker's information did allow the Soviets to precisely track the NATO fleet led by the U.S.S. Eisenhower of 83 ships when it left the U.S. in 1981 (this was part of the purpose of the fleet maneuver in the first place)....but the NATO fleet later evaded two Soviet RORSATs launched to track it and a large number of Soviet recon planes that tried to find it.
     
  18. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Even in 1963, we had no weapons capable of intercepting an ICBM.
     
  19. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But we had air to air nuclear missiles to intercept Soviet nuclear bombers.


    Took some really big cajones to fly in the ANG back in the day. When you fired the Genie you only had seconds to get the hell out of Dodge.

     
  20. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Which doesn't matter, because a bomber would not have targeted San Diego. An ICBM or SLBM would have. And all those ships with their weapons would have ended up at the bottom of the harbor or so radioactive that they might as well have been.
     
  21. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    El Correcto El Questerro.

    During the 1960's and 70's a Soviet nuclear attack upon the USA during the Cold War would have gone like thins.

    Soviet ICBM's would have targeted American ICBM missile silos and USAF SAC bases.

    Soviet bombers would soon follow targeting America's transportation hubs and centers, certain military installations and America's military industrial complex.

    Nike Sites of the Los Angeles Defense Area
    The Ring of Supersonic Steel

    [​IMG]

    http://www.ftmac.org/lanike3.htm

    The Nike Missile Air Defense System

    The Nike-Ajax was the first ground-based supersonic anti-aircraft missile system to become operational in the United States. The Nike missiles were deployed at sites in a circular pattern around key American industrial and military locations. The first Los Angeles area Nike-Ajax battery was emplaced in the mountains above Malibu in 1954. By 1958, there were 16 Nike-Ajax launch sites guarding the greater Los Angeles area, protecting an area of some 4,000 square miles. The Los Angeles Defense area was manned by several battalions of US Army Regulars and National Guardsman, under the command of the 47th Air Defense Brigade from 1954 to 1969.
    Nike missiles were launched from a self-contained launch area. Each site was equipped with two or three launching platforms each with an underground storage magazines, an elevator and four missile erectors. The missiles were stored

    [​IMG]
    Nike Hercules (left) and Nike Ajax at Site LA 88,
    Chatsworth 1960s. US Army Photograph


    underground on rails and were brought to the surface by an elevator. Once on the surface, they were pushed on rails to an erector and with the proper electrical and hydraulic connections completed, raised to an angle of about 85 degrees for firing.

    The Nike missiles employed the "command guidance" system in which the major control equipment was ground-based and not part of the expendable missile. The missiles were guided from a control area located at least 1000 yards from the launch area. It contained the radar equipment for acquiring and tracking the target and missile. Separate radars simultaneously located and tracked both the target and the Nike missile. Data from these radars was fed to the electronic computer which sent "commands" to the missile in flight to guide it to the target.

    The newer, more powerful Nike-Hercules missiles replaced the Nike-Ajax during the period 1958-1963. Nike-Hercules had the capability of being armed with a nuclear warhead. The Hercules was completely powered by solid fuels, eliminating the troublesome and dangerous liquid fueling procedure of the Nike-Ajax. Nike-Hercules also brought with it improved acquisition radar systems and an improved command coordinating system. The Nike Hercules were installed into modified Nike-Ajax sites in the Los Angeles area. Only 9 of the original 16 sites were converted to fire the Nike-Hercules missiles.

    The Nike Hercules was designed for defense against attack by large formations of bombers. As the perceived threat changed from bomber attack to missile attack, the usefulness of the Nike Hercules diminished. On 4 February 1974, the Army ordered all existing US Nike batteries were inactivated.
    http://www.ftmac.org/Lanike1.htm
     
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  22. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Once again, Soviet ICBM did not have the accuracy to target silos until the late 70’s and the intoduction of the SS-18, and even then, only the SS-18’s and later missiles were targeted on silos.

    Prior to that point all Soviet ICBM’s and SLBM’s were targeted at cities, airbases, naval bases, and C3I facilities. The Soviets didn’t even bother targeting silos because they knew they couldn’t hit then and they knew they would be empty before any bomber could reach them.

    The Soviet nuclear strategy was 100% counter-value prior to the late 70’s.

    Those ships in San Diego would have disappeared under a 5MT warhead from a SS-7 or SS-8.
     
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  23. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But if they nuked San Diego, the Blue Ox in Tia Juana would have been nuked and with no more donkey shows, Mexico would likely have declared war and the Russians would be in deep ****.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    excerpt:
     
  24. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    That’s utterly false. The Soviets in 1962 only had 40 ICBM’s but they had more than a hundred MRBM, IRBM’s, and SLBM’s. They rest of their warheads were not bomber based. Your source is absolutely wrong.

    Plus, eliminate the 40 largest cities in America and irradiate a significant area around all of them. How well does America survive after that?
     
  25. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Remember the "Missile Gap" back in 1960 ??? :roflol:-> https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/collection/what-was-missile-gap
     

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