Can we just say it?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Lee Atwater, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Banned Donor

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    The problem isn't Trump.

    Don't get me wrong, he's a sociopath. He's a liar. He's a conman. He cheated on his wife with a porn star. After he cheated on his wife he paid for the silence of the porn star so he could deceive the voting public. His company employed undocumented workers. His kids were almost charged with real estate fraud (until the DA was bribed). And as we were recently reminded, he steals money from charities. He stole money donated to help those in need and he spent it on himself. He stole money from a charity. He was fined $2M for stealing money from a charity. This, after being fined $25M for defrauding people. He defrauded people, was fined $25M, and then he was found guilty of stealing money.....................................................FROM A CHARITY.

    There's more. Much more. Most people with his history of behavior have served time in jail. They are criminals. As it happens, he has bought and blustered his way out of jail time. But people associated with him have not. Most people like him are society's pariahs. They lurk in the shadows waiting for their next mark.

    Don, he ran for President of the United States. He won.

    So..........the problem isn't him. He never should have made it past being a bloviating rich guy who used his Dad's fortune to enrich himself. He shouldn't have made it past being a sexual predator who likes to express his opinions on everything and everyone.

    The problem is The Following. The problem is with people who overlook the infidelity, the fraud, the theft, the lies, the racism, the laziness, the lack of basic decency. The problem is with people who allow themselves to be misinformed. People who don't reject the idea there are two realities.

    We are not, as a nation, debating the efficacy of health care policy. Or immigration policy. Or the existential threat of a changing climate. We are arguing about whether Don said what he said. What his chief of staff said that he said. What every witness called to testify in the impeachment inquiry has said about what he said and what was going on.

    We are failing as a nation to govern ourselves. We will continue to fail for as long as a portion of the voting public continues to delude itself. We will continue to fail until such time as candidates with Don's background are universally rejected as unfit to serve by people who currently feel having a lying, cheating, fraud who steals money from charities as prez is perfect.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
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  2. GChairman

    GChairman Active Member

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    Lee,

    You are showing your bias, dont let facts get in your way now

    Nobody said Trump was a saint, the things you've mentioned , did he do this while he was President of the United States?

    You posted Trump fooled around on all his wives, okay, true but not as President , like what Clinton and JFK did
    why is it okay that JFK fooled around with interns and movie stars as President its okay and forgiven but you want to condemn Trump for it?

    How many US Presidents have fooled around on their wives?

    How many early US President owned Slaves?

    How many US Presidents have shady pasts

    You call Trump a racist but say nothing about FDR stripping Japanese Americans of their civil liberties, how about Woodrow Wilson not allowing blacks Americans to serve together at a federal level and he was the reason why the Bolsheviks in Russia took over Russia

    How about Eisenhower trying to rid america of the illegals at that time calling it " operation wetback" we know if Trump used that term "wetback" Antifa, BLM and other whack job groups would have burned down the white house and Trump Tower

    Speaking of JFK the son of a bootlegger with ties to organize crime ( Chicago Outfit ,the Luchessi family in New York, Patriarca family of New England)

    Teddy Kennedy let a woman drown at Chappaquiddick

    Robert Byrd an actual KKK grand wizard poohbah , all forgiven

    But you want to bring up Trump's past and forgive others?

    Hypocritical I say.
     
  3. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Banned Donor

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    Delineating the past mistakes of various voters doesn't excuse yours.
     
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  4. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Well-Known Member

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    Ultimately what is being stated on the part of yourself, is the public of the united states is made up of individuals who do not care about criminal history or personal integrity, but rather care only about being told what they want to hear, and will support whoever tells them the message they want to hear even if it is not the truth?
     
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  5. Just A Man

    Just A Man Well-Known Member

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    I only know of Trump from what I see on TV, seeing him and hearing him speak. I do not personally know the man so I can't vouch for the character of his heart. So in the present I judge him. Many people praise him and many condemn him. But Trump has proven to be a great president, that I know. I voted for him and baring any future problems, plus looking at his challengers, I will vote for him again.
     
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  6. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Banned Donor

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    Do you believe he stole money from his foundation as reported?
     
  7. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    "After ten years of sowing the dragon's teeth of partisan politics the Republicans are surprised to find they have a real dragon" - Stephen King

    The Republicans have been lying cheats since they used that strategy to win in 2000. Most people who looked into the matter closely after that election was long over and had been awarded to Bush came to the conclusion that the FL recount was going to Gore when the SCOTUS stepped in and gave it to Bush. If cheating wins why not keep on cheating?

    The problem is Trump's "base" has this strategy of using the threat of a Primary challenge on every Republican who dares challenge Trumpian orthodoxy in any way. This group is national in scope but controls most local party machines using dark money from the Cabal of Billionaires typified by the Koch's.

    And this is where there is hope. It's very possible that this strategy has resulted in Republican Congresscritters who are so very out of touch with the mainstream voters that they run the risk of winning the Primary and losing the general. Should the Republican Senators see that Trump may be dragging then down with him they will turn on him like a pack of dogs turns on a sick leader
     
  8. Rush_is_Right

    Rush_is_Right Newly Registered

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    We had 2 choices (some could argue we had more than that but that's another thread). We made the BEST choice. You really need to find a way to deal with it.
     
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  9. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Banned Donor

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    The demonstrable facts say otherwise.
     
  10. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Hypocrisy is the glue of civilization...impossible to completely erase. However, once it's exposed it should be punished less it become the accepted new norm.
    But, that aside, why do you think Wilson was responsible for the Bolsheviks?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  11. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Banned Donor

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    It can be argued with absolutely credibility that years of right wing talk radio and the rise of Faux created the conditions for Trump. But the responsibility for fact checking the lies right wing media spews falls upon each individual. Facebook refuses to fact check political ads. That is a disgrace. Their platform should be boycotted. But ultimately the fault is not with the liar but with those who choose to believe the lies when information is readily available to refute them.
     
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  12. Just A Man

    Just A Man Well-Known Member

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    Well there was a rapist governor who as president had sex with an young intern in the White House. Then he was impeached and was still popular after all that. Yes, some people have a charismatic nature and people will follow them over a cliff, ala Jim Jones. The phenomenon is not new. We could vote for crooked evil Trump or we could vote for crooked evil Hillary (defender of sexual predator mentioned above) -- who would you choose? A good leader can also be an SOB in their personal life. Even the president who was elected 4 times was cheating on his wife. Jimmy Carter was a decent man but as a leader of the country he was in over his head.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
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  13. Just A Man

    Just A Man Well-Known Member

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    You want Facebook to tell us who is lying?
     
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  14. Rush_is_Right

    Rush_is_Right Newly Registered

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    Who is going to fact check the fact checkers?
     
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  15. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

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    You don't like Trump, I think we all get that. You are entitled to your opinion.

    Trump is an egotistical twit, no doubt about that either. However, you make several assumptions, such as 'morally bankrupt'. Really? Does cheating on one's spouse make a person 'morally bankrupt'? Then there are many, many 'morally bankrupt' politicians of both parties, that get voted in virtually every election. What does that say about the voters on both sides, if you want to continue on that path?

    Considering that Trump's biggest offense seems to be that he isn't owned by the corporations, and has rattled a number of political cages, that some people have an overwhelming need to slime any and all people who don't view Trump as 'intellectually and morally bankrupt'. If you can't actually prove your statements, then go after those who don't agree with your statements, they make easier targets in your opinion.

    Perhaps it's time that you faced the actual 'reality'.. you don't like Trump, fine. But instead of going after the person, try discussing the policies you disagree with, and why.
     
  16. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Mostly no.... but I think lee was saying that this man with all his baggage is the man we elected... and surely that says something about us. If you decide to known marry a drug addict thief.... surely that reflects on you. If you are ruined because this drug addict thief continues known behaviors.... a lot of people would have little sympathy for your predicament

    in the case of trump... it is certainly true that he used money from his charity to help him get elected. It is true that he defrauded the electorate by denying his affair with a porn star. He defrauded the electorate by falsely claiming he had no business relationships with Russia. He publicly encouraged Russia to help him get elected. He slandered the sitting president during the election for his political advantage. And now, it looks clear that he was using our foreign policy to blackmail a foreign leader to smear his political opponent.

    Fair enough.... and no one proposes he should be impeached for his past behavior
    OTOH.... it is also fair to in an election to call attention to points of character.... as the gop did with Clinton. The OP was pointing out that much of trump’s behavior was known by the electorate

    N any case, the current impeachment inquiry is about what trump has done as president
     
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  17. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    this seems to me like the tobacco companies saying that tobacco is harmless
    .... deny, deny deny
    Most all this stuff is well documented
    That said, lots of Americans simply do not care
     
  18. GChairman

    GChairman Active Member

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    Nice deflection, so no real response huh? so basically you're saying what is good for the Democrats doesn't apply to Trump, or whatever Trump does is just bad in your eyes

    Yeppers, hypocrite


    Because Kerensky as vice chairman of the soviet petrograd caved into Wilson pressure, Kerensky wanted to remove Russia from WW1, as they were getting hammered and it was causing problems for his new government

    Wilson needed and persuaded Kerensky to stay into the war and that gave Lenin and his Bolshevik the support they need to over throw the provisional government which in February overthrew the Czar

    If Kerensky had not caved in , there is no way Lenin's Bolsheviks would or could come to power as the Provisional government controlled the various armies except the red army controlled by Trotsky, and even then Trotsky recruited disgruntled army vets and white army who were tired, hungry and under armed.
     
  19. GChairman

    GChairman Active Member

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    No Ardy, he is showing his bias
    Trump wasnt the greatest candidate, but what choice did we have?
    Hillary with even more baggage and corruption?


    Gary Johnson ?

    We picked the lesser of the two evils, both candidates were bad, but as it turns out Trump is doing better than I thought and hoped.

    more propaganda, I see

    He used money from his charity to help get him elected, I thought according to his detractors it was Russia who secured the election, even though Hillary and Im using your numbers won the popular vote by 3 million people
    Yet Hillary only won 20 States plus D.C and Trump won 30 States?

    Interesting

    By the way all political leaders use their powers to influence foreign leaders , even the girl power of Theresa May and Angela Merkel was discussing what do with the Murdered journalist in Russia, how is it what goes on in Moscow is any concern to the people of Germany and the UK?
    They always bring up the past of Trump, you did, the charities, the porn star affair etc etc etc.

    So what did Trump do as President that is considered "High crimes and misdemeanor" where he deserves to be impeached?
    It seems like Democrats are making up the rules as they see fit because 50% of the country hates Trump

    When Clinton was Impeached, I agreed, he actually did something that deserved it
    When Nixon was about to be impeached, same thing
    When Andrew Johnson was impeached, he actually did something that deserved it

    What exactly did Trump do that he deserves to be impeached?

    be specific

    And by the way with Clinton, his extramarital affairs were well known when he first ran for president in 1992, truth be told if Perot hadn't entered the race, Bush 41 would have defeated Clinton in 1992, as Perot took a lot of Republican voters away

    While Perot didn't secure one electoral college vote, 19 million people voted for him, the largest independent candidate votes in history and you dont think Perot took a lot of Republican votes?
     
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  20. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Donor

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    So @Lee Atwater
    You want us to not overlook some infidelity but want us TO overlook crappy communist policies of the left?
    When in comparison trumps romp with a porn star seems quite miniscule.
    You are right about one thing though, Trump is not the problem.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
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  21. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    I oppose. Trump's policy against immigrants and Hispanics. I am neither but I recognize that if you tolerate repressing others it can very easily be turned against you

    I oppose his opposition to health care. I believe that he will turn against Medicare and Social Security next, no matter what he says, That is another problem with him, he lies, you cannot trust the veracity of anything he says

    Just about all his policies are highly repugnant to me. I agree with hm on the price of drugs, that's about it.
     
  22. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Trump obstructed the investigation into his collusion with the Russians, The Mueller Report would pretty much prove that beyond a reasonable doubt if the matter was ever allowed to be brought to trial, He did so effectively to the extent that the collusion itsefl cannot be proven but the obstruction itself should be proof enough of the collusion since why would he obstruct the investigation if he was innocent? That alone merits impeachment and lengthy incarceration by any standard of criminal justice I know.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am not concerned about Trumps sex life - and you are over the top with the "predator" thing.

    If you are trying to make a case for "he's a sociopath. He's a liar. He's a conman" there is much better than discussing his sex life.

    "We are not discussing" correct - and that is what the Establishment needs in a good front man - someone that keeps the public's attention off the real issues - and keeps them divided over "hot button" issues - so the status quo will not be challenged.

    It is not Trumps fault that the MSM does not discuss the real issues - CNN - MSNBC - FOX - are "National enquirer" news. Fox is better than the former these days - albeit still pathetic.

    RT is better than all three. Without a fair and free media - there is no such thing a a functional democratic process. Go Tulsi.
     
  24. GChairman

    GChairman Active Member

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    I can see you didn't read the report, as Mueller explains "collusion", legally Collusion doesnt exist

    Again, the report talks about why he couldn't use "collusion" as in for the Obstruction of Justice

    Mueller pointed out and I will paraphrase Mueller
    " ten potential obstruction of justice" notice the word "potential" , not definite

    I have read the entire report as it took me 3 nights to complete it including the legal jargon, I read the indictments including the Russian agents, not one and I repeat not one of the indictments from Manaford to Flynn to Trump's insiders were indicted for Conspiracy or to use your words " collusion"


    The only thing Mueller proved beyond a reason of doubt was Russia did interfere in our election in 2016

    Maybe you can answer this , why in 2017 the three Congressional committees opened investigations to examine Russia’s interference in the election and whether the Trump Campaign had colluded with Russia.why three committees, the Mueller report, Mueller testifying proved squat

    January 13, 2017, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) announced that it would conduct a bipartisan inquiry into Russian interference in the election, including any “links between Russia and individuals associated with political campaigns.”

    On January 25, 2017, the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI) announced that it had been conducting an investigation into Russian election interference and possible coordination with the political campaigns.

    And on February 2, 2017, the Senate Judiciary Committee announced that it too would investigate Russian efforts to intervene in the election.


    Source Mueller report Volume 2, page 28
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  25. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    The announcements themselves were more than enough warning to Trump and his people to cover their tracks
     

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