Cartridge question...

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by JakeJ, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Some on this forum seem quite knowledgeable on firearms details. Maybe you can answer a question concerning cartridges. It seems to me that short barrel firearms maybe are typically being loaded with pointlessly too powerful (long) cartridges. For example, is there ANY reason to put a .357 into a revolver with a 2 1/2 inch barrel revolver instead of a cheaper 38sp, which is what all target shooters use in .357s? It would seem the only effect would a huge flash past the barrel. That would seem to even apply to a stub nose 38sp.
    This possibly would also apply to some short barrel carbine rifles.

    The reason I ask is 1.) the logic of it and 2.) I noticed the ballistics my long barrel black powder (low pressure) cartridge handguns tend to equal or beat their stub nose modern powder (high pressure) counterparts. For example, a 38 long Colt pistol black powder pistol cartridge out of a Colt Army 38 revolver with 6 inch barrel seems to about equal (or exceed) that of a modern 38sp stubby short barrel alloy 5 shot alloy pocket revolver. Generally, for short barrel pistols there seems little ballistic difference between old black powder cartridge and modern smokeless powder cartridges in short barrel handguns. Obviously longer barrels do more than make aiming easier.

    So is the greater power of a .357 or 38sp really just making a big flash after the bullet exits the barrel in a short barrel handgun?

    Or I could be completely wrong. Am I missing something?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  2. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    Beating Turtle:
    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html
     
  3. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  4. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    Compare a 9mm +P to the .357 in a 2" barrel. Surprising.
     
  5. upside222

    upside222 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Remember to also look at the weight of the bullet. It's not all speed. The .45acp is slow but the bullet weighs so much it carries one heck of a wallop!
     
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  6. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    Modern powders can be fit for a particular use so that some loads are more efficient in short barrel pistols. Indeed, a Snubbie needs a bit more power due to the loss of velocity. BTW 9mm Carbines or 40 Cal carbines pick up some velocity. I have an IMI "Timberwolf" pump action carbine that shoots 38s or 357s. The recoil, even with the brutal 125 grain JHP "Frontier" Lawman loads is rather minimal but the stopping power is such that this carbine is perfect (and Legal) for the 200+ pound deer here in Ohio.
     
  7. Jestsayin

    Jestsayin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1. Many ammunition manufacturers tailor special loads designed for short barreled firearms. Speer being the most prominent.
    2. The best reason not to use .357 ammo in snubbies is the difficulty of followup shots, noise levels, and blinding flash.

    If you only have five or six shots in a snubbie so you better make them all count, carry a second gun, or have brought more friends to your gunfight.
     
  8. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Almost everyone shooting short range targets in sporting venues will use under-powered cartridges.

    Those wanting to shoot game and people coming at them to harm or kill them want the extra power of a .357 or a .40 S&W.
     
  9. jmblt2000

    jmblt2000 Well-Known Member

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    I think most of what you were asking has been answered. So I will simply give you some of my experience. I am a former competition shooter....low powered loads allow you to have a more pleasurable shooting experience. Being able to hit a target (lethally) at seven yards (a large size room in any house) does not require a large amount of practice. Being able to put every round (95%) in the 9 or 10 ring at 15 to 25 yards takes hundreds of hours and thousands of rounds of practice to accomplish consistently.

    I used to primarily shoot a 1911 22l.r. for most of my practice. It helped with muscle memory, I was able to practice good shooting techniques without fatiquing my arms or wrist. Plus it is a lot cheaper to shoot a thousand rounds of 22lr than of 45 acp.

    Most people that use a snub-nosed .357, are primarily using it for self-defense. The .357 has the best record of one shot stop against an aggressive human. I say this because I own property and hunt and fish every year in Alaske. There is a joke about the .357 up there.

    "If you are wandering around the wilderness of Alaska with a .357, please remember to remove or file the front sight off. This is not to enable a faster draw or prevent snags on heavy clothes...It is because it hurts a lot less when the bear takes it away from you and shoves it up your a$$."

    When carrying up in Alaska, I have a .45-70 Marlin Guide gun and a Freedom Arms number One in .454 Casull...Neither one is pleasant to shoot.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
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  10. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    As noted: Modern powders - slow and fast burn rates. When you load your own ammo, you can do better than the factory in matching your load to your gun.
    And, while gouts of flame from your muzzle are all kinds of cool, it means you have too much and/or the wrong kind of powder.
     
  11. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    A long time ago, a bunch of Detectives were shooting short barrel revolvers using Federal 158 grain swc +P loads, unknown to anyone, lots of unburned powder was accumulating on the concrete range floor, there was a spark from a bullet striking a metal plate and some spectacular fizzing as all that powder caught fire.....
     
  12. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    Remember the A.M.T. pistol chambered for
    .30 carbine ?
    What a fireball !!!!
     
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  13. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    One of the unusual firearms in my collection is an Iver Johnson "Super Enforcer", which is basically a handgun based on the M-1 Carbine action. Uses the same 15 and 30-rd. mags. Almost a "pre-PDW" for those who know what that term means.

    Huge fireball and a thunderous concussion. More a toy than anything else but oh, so much fun to shoot!!
    Super Enforcer.jpg
     
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  14. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    .308?
     
  15. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    No! It's chambered in the classic .30 Carbine cartridge. Straight-walled case for the most part, pushing a 110-grain bullet at about 1800 fps.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
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  16. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    What sort of velocity does it reach out of a short barrel?

    That matter aside, the Ruger manufacturing company produces their Blackhawk model single action revolver in the above mentioned cartridge.
     
  17. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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  18. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    I had one of those Rugers at one time! I still regret ever getting rid of it!

    I chronographed Cor-Bon's 110-gr. hollowpoint load out of it once. Rated for about 2100 out of a rifle barrel, it reached 1775 out of my Super Enforcer. A very impressive little handful!
     
  19. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    full auto M2 Carbines were often cut down to "enforcer" specs in Nam. One of the kids I used to coach was the son of a Nam Door Gunner. He said he had a cut down M2 he kept on a sling because he could operate his M60 door gun and still have what was essentially a machine pistol on him which was far more handy than a M16 and had far more firepower than a handgun
     
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  20. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    Ironically, that's the whole point of "PDW" platforms like the M-1 Carbine, or the FN 5.7, or the HK MP7. For whatever reason, people are always in a hurry to try and declare the military handgun "obsolete", and they try to come up with a weapon that is light enough to be carried easily by rear area troops like a sidearm but has the greater firepower and combat utility of a long arm.

    Interestingly, the M-1 Carbine was supposed to replace the M1911 .45 service pistol, but instead became a supplemental weapon to buttress supplies of the M-1 Garand and was carried by a huge percentage of American troops as a primary arm.
     
  21. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    We actually made more of them than we did the M1 Garand. The last time that the US sold these Intermediate caliber, magazine fed military grade carbines to the public, in 1963, they cost $17.50 plus $2.50. With no background check.
     
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  22. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    Man, what I wouldn't give to have one for that price!

    I had an Inland one, dated 1944, with the Korean era upgrades to sights and safety. Amazing how much fun shooting that little rifle could be!
     
  23. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    Note that the sale of these "assault weapons" to the public was under a Democratic president and an Democrat majority House and Senate.
     
  24. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    It was also to replace the M1928 Thompson. All were used side-by-side.
     
  25. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    different powders burn at different rates. In theory, you the last bit of powder to burn at the last instant as the bullet exits the muzzle. In practice, this very difficult to acheive, and imo its better to have a little left over than to have not enough and cause a low powered shot or even a squib. Powder isnt all that expensive.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017

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