Chance is not a creative force.

Discussion in 'Science' started by bricklayer, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It can, and I just gave you several examples of it.

    Also, is there some reason you keep avoiding my question? I mean... it seems like a pretty simple question to me.
    Do you think the practices of assessing fault tolerance/risk management are useful to humans or not??
    Do you think things like space travel, commercial air travel, computer software, etc. are useful or not???

    -Meta
     
  2. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    8,898
    Likes Received:
    2,751
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, I do agree that chance can do that. Chance cannot even improve very, very simple things let alone complex systems.
    I do agree that chance mutation occur, but I do not believe that chance can do what you think chance can do. Things just don't happen like that by chance no matter how much chance you have.
     
  3. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    8,898
    Likes Received:
    2,751
    Trophy Points:
    113
    "Practices of assessing fault tolerance/risk management", do not occur by chance.
    "Space travel, commercial air travel, computer software, etc., do not occur by chance.
     
  4. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You agreed that chance DNA mutation is possible, right?
    It does not take a significant change in a DNA sequence to change one type of protein into another.

    -Meta
     
  5. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm not suggesting those things "occur by chance".
    I'm saying that they are based upon the concept of chance as an abstraction.
    Without the concept of chance, they simply wouldn't work.

    Do you agree that fault tolerance/risk management are based on the concept of chance?
    Do you think the practices of assessing fault tolerance/risk management are useful to humans??
    Do you think things like space travel, commercial air travel, computer software, etc. are useful to humans???

    -Meta
     
  6. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    7,238
    Likes Received:
    4,819
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That isn’t an answer to a simple question, but an evasion, a variation of the old anti evolution , would it be possible if there were an infinite number of monkeys, on an infinite number of typewriters, striking an infinite number of keys, that at some point, the works of Shakespeare could be reproduced.
    I asked a simple question, which you appear to answer.

    BTW, When given the Shakespeare challenge, I usually respond with answer ‘Yes, it is not only possible, the fact is, unless you deny the existence of Shakespeare’s work, not only Is it possible, but it happened and it was produced by a human primate who was a product of Natural Selection.
     
    WillReadmore likes this.
  7. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    8,898
    Likes Received:
    2,751
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nothing can increase in functional complexity by chance. By chance, things go from a more complex and less stable state to a less complex and more stable state. Even something a simple as a protein cannot come to be by chance, and it certainly cannot become more functionally complex by chance, no matter how much chance you have.
     
  8. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    8,898
    Likes Received:
    2,751
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The very purpose of fault/risk management is exactly because nothing increases in complexity by chance. The very need for such a fault/risk management is predicated on the fact that such cannot be left to chance.
     
  9. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    8,898
    Likes Received:
    2,751
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Chance does not work that way, and increasing the amount of chance doesn't change that.
    Nothing increases in functional complexity by chance, no matter how much chance you have.
     
  10. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    7,238
    Likes Received:
    4,819
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I see, you deny the existence of Shakespear’s work? It happened. Shakespeare was the product of millions of years of natural selection, and chance played a role in his specific pattern of DNA, along with that of all those in history that played their respective roles in history that provided not only inspiration, but the technology he used for recording and sharing his creative works and the social constructs of the time that provided an audience that could understand his content. As for chance, he could have been aborted, or his parents never meet to pass on his genetic code. All, product of countless micro chances, any one of which could have resulted in a different historic path.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,467
    Likes Received:
    16,350
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Over and over again you fail to recognize the theory of evolution does not just work by chance.

    And, by chance anything can happen - chance doesn't rule out some specific set of occurrences.

    What mechanism makes a positive outcome of chance impossible?
     
  12. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Are you suggesting that changing a protein-generating DNA sequence does not in fact change the type of protein generated?

    -Meta
     
  13. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yet again, you aren't answering the question that was actually asked here...

    Do you agree that fault tolerance/risk management are based on the concept of chance? Yes or no?
    Do you think the practices of assessing fault tolerance/risk management are useful to humans?? Yes or no??
    Do you think things like space travel, commercial air travel, computer software, etc. are useful to humans??? Yes or no???

    -Meta
     
  14. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    8,898
    Likes Received:
    2,751
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Not all changes are equal. Changes that occur by chance cannot increase the functional complexity of a thing no matter how much chance you have. There's no chance that change by chance can increase the functional complexity of anything, not a pile of rocks, not a protein, nothing. Chance changes simply don't do that. Chance changes always increase the stability and decrease the complexity of anything they change. Chance changes cannot decrease the stability and increase the complexity of anything.

    I hope that you don't employ your proclaimed faith in chance in your everyday life. That is to say that, I hope that you don't leave the rest of your life up to chance. That's not a good plan, and you know it because, on some level, you know that chance doesn't work that way. Chance can't make the inanimate animate. Chance cannot make the simple complex. Chance cannot build anything up. Left to chance, even your life will wind down not up.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  15. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Again, forget complexity for a moment...
    I just want to know if you agree that changing a protein-generating DNA sequence changes the type of protein generated.
    Well.... does it or doesn't it?

    None of that has anything to do with the question asked.
    Again, does changing a protein-generating DNA sequence change the type of protein generated, or doesn't it?

    -Meta
     
  16. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    8,898
    Likes Received:
    2,751
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And again, and again, not all changes are equal. Mutations can change a protein, but it cannot change it in such a way as to add to the functional complexity of anything.

    And no, I will not take my 'eye off the ball'. Functional complexity is what is being attributed to a series of chance changes.
    All I'm saying is that chance can't do that no matter how much chance you have.
    Chance is not a creative force. Chance is a destructive force.
     
  17. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If a mutation can change a protein, even if the new protein is not any more complex than the last,
    this change can still potentially benefit especially a single-cell organism. Would you agree with that?

    You can't understand the whole if you don't understand at least a little something about what makes it up.
    And vice-versa. One should strive to be knowledgeable about things from both angles.

    Do you agree that fault tolerance/risk management are based on the concept of chance? Yes or no?
    Do you think the practices of assessing fault tolerance/risk management are useful to humans?? Yes or no??
    Do you think things like space travel, commercial air travel, computer software, etc. are useful to humans??? Yes or no???

    -Meta
     
  18. Thehumankind

    Thehumankind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,478
    Likes Received:
    342
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    I think chance can be attributed towards the scientific degree of probability and not really a creative force, like it`s really impossible for two dormant bodies to collide but quite different if they are dynamic.
     
  19. rahl

    rahl Banned

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    62,508
    Likes Received:
    7,651
    Trophy Points:
    113
    by what mechanism is complexity impossible to be increased by chance? Where is your scientific evidence to support the bald assertion you keep repeating?
     
    WillReadmore likes this.
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,467
    Likes Received:
    16,350
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, it's more like repeatedly rolling a bucket of dice and preserving the high rolls.

    Rolling a 6 isn't "creative". But, saving some of the high pip counts and rerolling the rest creates a higher score - even if you don't do a perfect job of saving all the high pip counts.

    Chance + selection.
     
    Thehumankind likes this.
  21. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    7,238
    Likes Received:
    4,819
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ah... pub dice, part of the Wisconsin drinking culture that is highly seasonal and series of games (6’s, aces, 7-11-21, etc) that draws more players during the long winter months as the pubs become the social centers to numb the mind and body while counterintuitively minimizing the effects of cabin fever. A legal gambling activity (as long as not played with anything of any obvious value more than who pays for a round of drinks) often occurring where any two or more people are gathered in most pubs.
    Virtually all pubs have floating dice cup sets for the asking with some like the one I owned, having 6 in rotation at any one time (My place was a known cop bar). Sure there is a lot of chance involved, but there is strategy as well, though hard to beat a sweep of 6’s on the first throw.
    Popular thing in Wisconsin. A Dem recently put forth a bill to make the (decadent) game illegal, but didn’t realize the quicksand she was stepping into with a wasp nest hanging overhead.
     
    WillReadmore likes this.

Share This Page