Christian Brother Jailed For Sex Abuse, But His Church Still Stands By Him

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Makedde, Aug 10, 2011.

  1. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    That is not how it works.

    If you lie, even if no one knows, you still go to God and ask forgiveness. You will most likely still lie again - and need to ask for forgiveness.

    Additionally, if we find ourselves sinning repeatedly and are unable to brea the pattern, we do not just use prayer - there are other people out there that can HELP us.

    The borthers in this case may not have had any idea he was doing this, and by the time they found out the cycle of abuse had run its destructive course. Know that they know, they can administer aid as they can.

    The lesson these men live is simple: none of us are above sin, and all sin can be forgiven. This is a blessing when it is the little things that allows us to acknowledge mistakes, it is a harder thing when the sin is grievous.

    Yet retribution is not what make the news is it?

    http://en.harakahdaily.net/index.ph...rgives-attacker-under-shariahs-qisas-law.html

    This man will still be punished. He is still a man in need of forgiveness, and his brothers have offered it. That is a good thing.
     
  2. Ezra

    Ezra New Member

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    I agree. I think he should have been suspended until the allegations were solved. Wether by just reparations, or if the victim wanted, pressing charges.

    That said, I disagree with some of thous on this forum, who seem to want to judge every priest as being a predator. And demonize the whole church.

    Wether or not, the victims agree to reparations or wanting to press charges, is up to them. I find nothing wrong with that. But after the first time they should have done something.


    You can not judge a book by its cover.

    His outward look, has nothing to do with the inside. Only God knows, and only God can give forgiveness.

    I think the order failed. They should have gotten the man some help. They should have removed him to a position where he wasn't around children.
     
  3. Makedde

    Makedde New Member Past Donor

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    I can't agree. I can't agree that someone can sin, ask to be forgiven, knowing full well they will do the same thing again.

    How can you say "God, I am sorry I molested that little boy, and I ask you to forgive me...but I will also say that I will do the same thing again, and will again ask you to forgive me"

    That just makes God sound like a pushover, someone who is naive and easily led. Its too lenient for my liking. God should draw a line somewhere. Say, if you do it once, you can be forgiven. Twice, you can be forgiven still, but three times you should lose Gods trust.

    Where will this Christian Brother end up? Heaven or hell? He hurt a child, and asked for forgiveness yet continued to harm a child. How could God send this man to heaven when his victims live in hell every day of their lives?
     
  4. Ezra

    Ezra New Member

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    Perfect Contrition. And Works of Penance
     
  5. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    There is no justification other than corporate rights and corporate law. That is the one aspect that no-one is giving consideration to. The Church quit being the 'Church' when it became a corporation and acting in consort with the state. And like I have stated before, that is also one of the reasons that I no longer adhere to the teachings of any of the 501c3 churches.

    As can be seen at this link, there is a very strong probability that most of the Catholic Churches in the United States are corporations. I am not cherry picking any particular church, as I already have searched out most of the other Christian denominations and they too are corporate members. My submission of this information is for the sole purpose of allowing others to see that the 'Church' is not the entity that is responsible for these wrong doings, but rather it is the fault of Corporate laws that are not concerned with the well being of individual men, women and children.
    http://creditreports.dnb.com/webapp...-2106634021&busName=Catholic&country=US#goTop


    I cannot speak for the particular church in Au, as I don't know how the corporate affairs of that country are set up.

    If that link does not work, then just goto www.dnb.com and use their search function for the word 'Catholic' or 'baptist' or methodist or any other church name; or name of any city that is incorporated or state or county....


    Edit: Just did another search and it turns out that The Christian Brothers of Australia are in fact members of the Corporate conglomerate also.
    http://creditreports.dnb.com/webapp...ype=AdvancedCompanySearch&SecurityWord=HJZRZL
     
  6. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

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    con·spir·a·cy

    4. Law . an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.

    And?

    OK. How about............ now.

    The Constitution guarantees freedom of association. It does not guarantee public subsidies for said associations.

    Uh?

    Who am I to judge criminal pedophiles escaping justice? I am a member of a society organized under the principles of the rule of law, and as such, have a vested interest in seeing that law upheld. That's who the hell I am.

    I wasn't aware that NAMBLA was being investigated nor has it or its members been implicated in criminal conspiracies. Did I miss something? Irony noted, however that you place NAMBLA and the Catholic Church in equivalent positions. ;)

    I was referring to the way things work in the rational world when I made my comments.
    Feisty tonight! I love it! :hug:

    I think I already made that clear. You may wish to reread my comments.

    This thread is about the Catholic Church. If you want to discuss other institutions, why don't you start a thread and invite me to join. You'll probably be disappointed by my consistency, however.

    Not at all. In order for your examples to be analogous, you'd have to find another hierarchical institution that has demonstrated the propensity to systematically protect criminals in its midst for the sole purpose of saving itself some embarrassment. You can look at the Boy Scouts, public school districts, the YMCA, etc.. Certainly all of these institutions have had their share of problems. In the case of public schools, there have been some very high profile cases (Mary Kay LeTourneau for example) of the kind of betrayal of trust and abuse of authority as we have seen from the church over the past five decades, but there was NO obstruction of justice, there was NO converup, there was NO destruction of evidence, there were NO bogus claims of moral authority-- the acts were reported and dealt with. Period. What you can not reconcile is the fact that in your heart of hearts, you KNOW the church did wrong--both as an institution and vis-a-vis certain individuals (such as the sanctimonious pigs Mahoney and Law), you KNOW they should have reported the allegations to the proper authorities IMMEDIATELY. But they did not do that. And that troubles you--as it should. I just wish you would admit it so we could move on. Do you know what happened to Cardinal Law, for example, after he was forced to resign his post and literally fled Boston just hours before state troopers showed up with subpoenas? Do you? Why don't you tell the class what happened to Cardinal Law--a man who certainly did some good things in his life, but ultimately shuffled known pedophiles from one parish to the next all to save face for the church. Tell us what "happened" to this criminal. Please.

    Keep your undies on, I was being snarky. :omg:

    Sick, sick individuals, of course. But the Constitution guarantees them the right to free association and free speech just like it does you.
    Again, there is no analogy. Show me where NAMBLA behaved like the Catholic Church. Show me where it acted cospiratorially to systematically defend actual members accused of child rape for several decades. Unlike the church which claims moral authority and has great political power, NAMBLA is simply a political action committee--they make no pretensions about who they are. They do not tell you "send us your children, they'll be safe with us" and then turn around and stick their dicks in those children. Obviously, most NAMBLA members are pedophiles, but AFAIK, they are--as they have every right to do--working in concert to change laws that the feel are unjust. Sick and twisted? Sure. Criminal conspirators? Sorry, that's the church.
    MY logical consistency. YOUR red herring.

    At least 4,000 priests have been implicated. And my beef is not even with the priests as much as it is with the leadership who--at every turn--CHOSE TO DO THE WRONG THING. You'd know this had you been paying attention. Yet these hand-wringing blowhards with their phony piety have the nerve to tell ME how I should live MY life? They have the nerve to tell me that they are some kind of moral authority? No, I'm sorry, they do not. And you and all the apologists will continue to dismantle logic and offer up every justification in the book, grasp at every straw within your hemisphere--hoping that some of it sticks so you can feel better about supporting an organization that has acted so badly and that has so brazenly betrayed the public trust. Reminds me of all the feminists who came out (no pun intended heh heh) to defend Bill Clinton after he "did not have sexual relations with that woman."

    Hypocrisy noted on all counts.

    I gave you specifics. Before you accuse someone of not providing something, you should actually ask for it first. Just sayin'

    Oh man you're looking down over the edge, aren't you?

    Of course not. But the institution has shown the public that it will do what's necessary to save face and avoid embarrassment (and expensive lawsuits). But hey, come on, it's a numbers game, right? I mean it wasn't that many children who were abused, right? You're a military man--certainly there must be a number of acceptable casualties.

    NAMBLA is a result of pedophilia and far-left moral relativism. I don't know the religious affiliations of its members. Do you have some data on that? I'd love to see it.
     
  7. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Well, it does appear from federal records that at least some Atheist organizations are listed as "Tax Exempt" which means that they receive the benefit of making purchases without having to pay taxes.....

    http://www.irs.gov/app/pub-78/searc...y=all&dispatchMethod=search&submitName=Search
     
  8. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

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    Yeah, so? Of course they take advantage of the tax law if they meet the requirements. The law should change. Associate at your own expense.
     
  9. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

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    Oh, and not to put too fine a point on it, Inc., but when you search "Atheist" on that IRS page, you get 18 results. Go ahead and type in "God." I'll save you the trouble: 6,375 results.
     
  10. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    So, two or more people are now a billion Catholics are they?

    Thank you for demonstrating the egregious math error in your calculations.

    How about we do some math and see what expenditures are to profits, where you will quickly see that the Church is not th emoney laundering scheme that atheists present it as. That is why Pope John Paul II made the records public, and it is telling that atheists adhere to the illusion of wealth when the actual numbers are available and vetted by professional accountants.


    Great, now generate enough consensus to change the law. That will require something more than an emotional aversion, and will require a legitimate costs benefits analysis that offsets the drop in charitable services that are likely to follow up such a change.

    Notable absent. As usual.


    Not paying taxes is not a subsidy, and if you looked at the actual numbers, (are we seeing the trend), if these organizations do not provide them, then the government has to step in to provide them - its called bartering.

    And yet, you only seem to have a problem and solution that you apply to one area of a comprehensive problem. Eliminating the Catholic church is not going to stop abuse. Demanding changes to ensure the Catholic Church changes to prevent that is totally legit. After it happens? To continue demanding the same changes and apologies all over? That is called nihilism at that point, and its your fault - not the churches anymore.

    When people can point to institutions where abuse has happened that have not implimented the same solutions and see yoru dread silence on the subject - we know what your attention is all about atheist.


    Then you are simply uneducated. Do your reserach, its called due diligence, (are we seeing a trend yet?).


    There are Christians in the real world (in case you missed it). And you have not successfully proven that their beliefs are based on the nonesense you claim it to be. So in the real world, by which I assume you mean an evidenced based presentation, all your arguements appear to be well wide of the mark you claim.


    Oh, YOU assign for yourself the task of judge, jury, and executioner without due diligence and you think flighty professions of liberty suffice to explain away concerns about such an authoritarian and single minded application of power?

    It doesn;t.


    Yep, and we are pointing out how atheists concerns with religion are elevated to the point of blithering hypocrisy.

    We are allowed to point that out - indeed, in a rational world, that is a duty is it not?


    And yet all the institutions that have had abuse issues have faced the same type of response. Your concern is ONLY with the Catholic Church - to impliment changes that they already have.

    Abuse happens, and eliminating the Catholic Church because atheists have bogoted standards against it will not eliminate abuse of children. It is that simple.

    Most preists are not abusers. It is that simple.

    The Constitution protects free expression and freedom of religion. Its that simple.

    That you don't like it? Who cares?

    Your Crusade against the Catholic Church is noticed, and incase you missed it, most Crusades run into opposition - welcome to reality.


    Snarky or not, you still proved the point.


    No, the Constitution does not guarantee them the right to start and organziation that advocates the sexual abuse of small children. That is abhorrent, and the fact that you would make such a claim on demonstrates the EXACT hypocrisy we are talking about.

    Sick.

    You really need to do your home work kiddo. If you are unaware of NAMBLA organized child sexual vacations, then you are simply ignorant. Nice to see you excusing them though.

    Catholic Church abuse = burn them.

    Atheists organizing trips to Asia and Central America to have sex with children who are in most cases trafficked child sex slaves? = nothing, what problem?

    Nice atheists.

    Your ignorance.


    4,000 priets huh? Wherever did you get that number at slick?


    Imaginary numbers in all your arguementation noted.

    No, you gave us a made up number from your head. You ignored teh public numbers of the Church's finance, and have taken two or more to be a billion.

    Your specifics are anything but.


    Yes, your faulty math is the result of my mental health?

    Another rousing bit of specifics from tired, angry atheists. :clap:




    Yep, and when the military committed atrocities in Mai Lai and Abu Gahrib, we punished the INDIVIDUALS responsible, we did not disband the military. Go figure.

    Agh, so all Catholics are guilt when preists abuse, but no other atheists are implicated when atheists abuse.

    Thank you for perfectly demonstrated the hypocritical standards of atheism.
     
  11. Perriquine

    Perriquine On hiatus Past Donor

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    Took the words right out of my mouth.
     
  12. Ezra

    Ezra New Member

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    HE has shown his hypocrisy many times in this thread.

    That is okay though. Christ promised to never allow the church to fall. And it wont happen. Let the Atheist foam out their mouths all they want. Its just words.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kmVyiuA6DY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kmVyiuA6DY[/ame]

    Have you watched a weekly Papal audience on EWTN? Many pilgrims come to hear the Pope speak.

    No wonder Atheist hate the Catholic church. The Church has so many faithfuls that its no wonder the secular media is trying to damage her by demonizing he much worse then thous who actually ARE worse, such as secular school teachers. Its a tactic to try and weaken the church. More ignorant people they can get to leave, the weaker the influence on politics.
     
  13. Ezra

    Ezra New Member

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    Aww poor Atheist.
     
  14. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Just pointing out that those listed organizations are no different than the other religious organizations with respect to the income tax laws and having the benefit of certain financial privileges that John and Jane Does across the US are not entitled to as individuals. So as long as they are tax exempt they (those organizations) are receiving a benefit from the government (translated = subsidy) that I was not given during my 40 + years in the labor pool. Just another burden on the tax payers.
     
  15. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    That number thing is irrelevant, as they do receive benefit in the form of subsidies from the government. . . a penny not taken in the form of taxes is a penny that has to be supplemented by those that do pay the taxes. But if you want to look at the relevancy of those numbers you generated on your search for 'God', then it would clearly show that according to the numbers from IRS, 'God' is far greater than "Atheist".
     
  16. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

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    It would appear that we agree on this point.
     
  17. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

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    Yes, so the faithful are suckling far more out of the public teat than are the atheists.
     
  18. Ezra

    Ezra New Member

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    Don't playa hate. :mrgreen:
     
  19. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Then you also admit that the Atheists are in fact "sucking" some "out of the public teat..". How wonderful. Now we know that Atheists are proving themselves to be working within the same sandbox as other religions.
     
  20. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    First off, why wait for court when your child has been sexually molested. People disappear easy enough. However, I'm not so sure that the Catholic Church is involved here to the extent the OP says it is or the article infers but doesn't actually state.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08056a.htm

    Catholic church has enough problems on its hands. It has allowed homosexuals to infiltrate its ranks. They should have stopped that years ago and what would the left have said then? It waffles on its stands and its members waffle even more and are so ignorant of bible teachings and the church's tenets that they continue to vote for issues that the church disapproves. it's a mess really. I wonder how long it will survive after this current pope.
     
  21. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    I stressed 3 points in that statement which you quoted, and you did not specifically name the point that you are referencing, therefore, I have to conclude that you agree with all three points that I stressed. Another good showing about Atheism being the equivalent of another religion, thus admitting to the 'religious' nature of Atheism.
     
  22. Ezra

    Ezra New Member

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    Not everyone is a cafeteria catholic.

    There are plenty who are faithful to the church and to the church teaching. And I know the bible pretty well.

    What exactly do you mean by this Margot?
     
  23. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

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    Of course. To claim otherwise would be preposterous. In that all these groups are presumable 501(c)3 organizations, they are all equal in legal standing. Yet, in terms of sheer dollars sucked out of the coffers by what you rightly call subsidies, Christians are sucking at a rate of AT LEAST 350:1 over atheists.
     
  24. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

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    Stop patting yourself on the back. What they share in common is charitable tax-exempt status. The Boy Scouts of America and the United Negro College Fund share the same status. Are they a religion too? Back to the woodshed ma'boy! :mrgreen:
     
  25. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

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    Tell your church to pay its fair share in taxes and I won't.
     

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