Christianity and Homosexuality

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by The Rhetoric of Life, Mar 4, 2019.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Are you suggesting that your views on homosexuality would change if HIV/AIDS was solved?

    Or was that health comment actually irrelevant?

    Are you implying that adherents of Judaism perform ritual sacrifice today as a requirement of their faith?
     
  2. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    And lots of smokers won't get lung cancer. So?
     
  3. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Not anymore, since the temple and its records were destroyed in AD70. There is a reason Jews stopped the sacrificial system. In fact, Jews who believe in the Messiah must choose someone who lived before that date, as all the records were destroyed, very few if any Jews today know what tribe they are. The Messiah was predicted to come from a specific tribe, which Jesus fulfilled.

    Here are some interesting historical happenings in the temple around this time, from Jewish, not Christian sources:

    http://www.bibleresearch.org/articles/a11pws.htm



    The Temple Gates

    The Jewish Talmud says that 40 years before the Temple was destroyed the gates of the temple opened by themselves, until Rabbi Yohanan B. Zakkai rebuked them (i.e., the gates) saying, "Hekel, Hekel, why do you alarm us? We know that you are destined to be destroyed" (Yoma 39b).

    The priests understood that, for Ezekiel's prophecy to be fulfilled, the existing temple would have to be destroyed and a new one built; however, because they did not understand the prophecies concerning the Messiah for their time, they did not understand the supernatural opening of the gates to mean that the old system of atonement was being replaced with a new one.

    The Sanhedrin

    The Sanhedrin officiated from the Chamber of Hewn Stones which was about 120 feet southeast of the Temple and its enormous stone lintel, which was at least 30 feet long, weighed some 30 tons and had cracked during the earthquake at the Messiah's death.

    History tells us that the Sanhedrin moved from their opulent surroundings in the Chamber of Hewn Stones to lesser accommodations shortly after the earthquake. Because there is no record of the Sanhedrin being forced by the Romans to move from the Temple (which would have caused a major political crisis), one can assume that the Sanhedrin moved because the earthquake had so damaged the building that it was unsafe for them to continue to meet there.

    It is interesting that, prior to the Messiah's crucifixion in 30 A. D., the Romans had taken away the Sanhedrin's authority to execute criminals (See Jn.18:31; Talmud Sanh.1:1,7:2). The last judgement that the Sanhedrin made from the Temple was to sentence the Messiah and Creator of humanity to death. From 30 A.D. to the time of this writing no Sanhedrin has officiated from a Temple in Jerusalem. With the departure of the Sanhedrin from the Chamber of Hewn Stones, the law no longer went forth from the Temple.

    Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the Sanhedrin was banished from their official residence to the trading station on the Temple Mount (Shabbat 15a), and eventually off the Mount altogether.

    40 YEARS OF WARNINGS

    Many wonder why God waited 40 years after Jesus' death and resurrection to fulfill his prophecy about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. First, the number 40 in the Bible is symbolic of trial, testing, and punishment. Second, waiting 40 years shows God's patience in allowing the Jews time to repent and turn back to him with proper behavior and worship so that he could bless them instead of punishing them.

    Although the Temple and city were not destroyed until 70 A.D., the supernatural events that occurred on the day the Messiah was murdered were only a few of the many warnings given to the Jewish people prior to the destruction of their beloved Temple and city. On the Day of Atonement in 30 A.D. a series of two consecutive warnings that were repeated on this day for another 39 years began.

    A Black Stone and A Scarlet Thread

    “And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat” (Lev.16:8 KJV).

    There is much debate over exactly what kind of objects the lots were. However, the information found in the Babylonian Talmud and the Mishnah indicates that the lots were two stones—one white and one black. The white stone had the words “For the Lord” written on it, and the black stone had the words “For Azazal” (i.e., the goat that is sent away or banished) written on it.

    These two stones were placed into a container and it was shaken; then, without looking into the container, the high priest would put his right hand into the container and draw out one of the lots.

    The Babylonian Talmud shows that, for two hundred years before 30 A.D., the first stone to appear in the right hand of the high priest randomly fluctuated each year between the white and black stone. One would expect this type of randomness, because God selected the more perfect goat to be slain for the sins of the people. But, beginning with the Day of Atonement in 30 A.D. (the year of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ), the black stone appeared in the right hand of the high priest for the next 39 years.

    The chances of the black stone (For Azazal) appearing 40 consecutive times in the right hand of the high priest is over a trillion to one according to Pascal's table of numerical odds.

    The continual appearance of the black stone in the right hand of the high priest was surely a sign of God's displeasure with the House of Judah and a warning for them to repent.

    The fulfillment of the prophetic black stone came after forty years of continuous warning when the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 70 A. D. by the Roman Empire.

    The Scarlet Thread

    On the Day of Atonement, a scarlet wool thread was placed on the door of the sanctuary. It was said that this thread turned white when the live goat was set free. But, beginning on the Day of Atonement in 30 A.D., this thread never turned white again. See Yoma 39b, Babylonian Talmud and pages 166, 170 Mishnah, by Danby.

    Clearly, the failure of the scarlet thread to turn white was another sign of God's disapproval of Israel's worship of him and their impending punishment if they did not repent. See Isa.1:18.

    THE REBELLION

    Shortly after the beginning of 63 A.D. and while Jerusalem was still a peaceful and thriving city, Jesus the son of Ananus began proclaiming and warning of the coming destruction to Jerusalem. For his continued effort to warn of the impending disaster (which lasted seven years and five months according to Josephus) he was ridiculed and beaten.

    Three years after Jesus the son of Ananus began his prophetic warnings, and in the Spring of 66 A.D., the Jews of Judea began a full scale rebellion against Rome.

    Besides the continual warnings of the son of Ananus, the Jews also received a number of supernatural warnings of the coming destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

    The Jewish historian Josephus recorded several dramatic events and warnings that concerned the Temple worship system at Jerusalem (War, Book 6. ch.5.) and foretold the end of the Temple worship system at Jerusalem. The following are just a few of the many warnings of impending disaster to come upon Jerusalem.

    1. During the Feast of Unleavened Bread in 66 A.D., at about 3 in them morning, a light as bright as daylight appeared around the altar for half an hour. Although some thought it was a good sign, the scribes understood it to be a precursor to the supernatural events that followed during the Feast:

    A heifer being led for sacrifice was said to have given birth to a lamb in the midst of the Temple.

    Around midnight, during the Feast, the huge eastern gate of the inner court of the temple, which was made of brass and normally took twenty men to shut, opened on its own. Josephus says that this was understood by knowledgeable men to mean that the Temple's protection had vanished and that the gate was opened for the benefit of their enemies. These enlightened men publicly declared that this sign foreshadowed the disaster that was coming on them (Wars IV,5,3).

    . On the twenty first of the month of Iyar, just before sunset, chariots and soldiers in armor were seen running about in the clouds around the city. See Lk.21:20.

    3.During the night portion of the day of Pentecost in 66 A.D., as the priests were entering the inner court of the Temple, they felt a quaking and heard a great noise and a sound like a great multitude of voices saying, "Let us remove hence".

    4. Jewish historical records state that the shekinah glory departed the Temple at that time and remained over the mount of olives for three and a half years, during which time, a voice could sometimes beheard coming from the mount pleading for the Jews to repent. See Midrash Lamentations 2:11. It is said that, just before the Roman'sfinal siege of Jerusalem, that this light which appeared over the Mount of Olives disappeared into the heavens.


    The Jews failed to heed these and many other warnings to repent of their sins and return to their God in humble obedience. If indeed the nation of Israel began its covenant relationship with the Creator God on the day of Pentecost at the foot of Mount Sinai, it ended this relationship on the day of Pentecost in 66 A.D..
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    What do you meann by "not anymore".

    Anyone can become a Jew - can become an accepted deciple of Judaism.

    A new covenant was not required for that.

    Please try to just answer the question. I'm not really going to read large amounts of material that has dubious importance to the specific topic.
     
  5. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    The Jewish sacrificial system is defunct since the destruction of AD 70, God had a miraculous hand in that, as the long link I posted demonstrates. Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross made it obsolete.
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You claimed the need for a new covenant had to do with defects in the old covenant and the need to allow participation by a wider audience.

    I just pointed out that Judaism allows for converts regardless of genetics - thus it already provides universal breadth. And, I am interested in what you see as the defects of the old system.

    All you say in this post is that the old system is "defunct". That's NOT an answer to the question I raised.

    I see this question as important, because if there are indeed defects in the old system, we should be aware of them if we EVER decide to quote something out of the OT.

    So, once again: what are the defects of the old system?



    BTW, I'd like to point out that you focus a lot on "sin", but the issues of our laws today are not based on sin - let alone what the Bible says about sin. Our founders didn't set it up that way. So, we have no laws against the seven deadly sins or most of the 10C. Plus, where we DO have laws relating to the 10C, they are independent of religion - instead, they have strong secular basis as being required by pretty much any society in any time of history. So, quoting the Bible in defense of a law is not an adequate argument.
     
  7. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    This is a short piece by John Ritenbaugh that answers your question:

    "Hebrews 10:9-10

    God's purpose was to remove the Levitical sacrifices ("the first") and replace them with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ ("the second"). In terms of power and value, this sacrifice is of such magnitude that, once made, it is sufficient to cover all sins. It does not have to be made repeatedly.

    Hebrews 10:18

    Christ's sacrifice had to be made only one time; it was sufficient to pay the penalty for all of man's sins for all eternity. All the sacrificial law did was foreshadow Christ's sacrifice, which is why it was a reminder and a schoolteacher. It did not define sin, unless the offerings themselves were done wrongly.

    Those temporary laws did not pertain to murder, stealing, Sabbath breaking, idolatry, lying, or any of the Ten Commandments. They are now, therefore, set aside because sin has been effectively covered in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

    The theme of the book of Hebrews is better: Christ is better than angels. The gospel given to us is better than that given under the Old Covenant. Christ is greater, better than Moses and Aaron. The New Covenant is better, greater, superior to the Old Covenant. The sacrifice of Christ is greater, better, superior to the sacrifices under the Old Covenant.

    The theme, then, through much of chapters 9 and 10, is that we replace the old with the new. We replace the inferior with a superior, the temporary with the permanent."



    Christ offered His own blood once for all time, making future sacrifices unnecessary. This is what Jesus meant by His dying words on the cross: “It is finished” (John 19:30). Never again would the blood of bulls and goats cleanse men from their sin. Only by accepting Jesus’ blood, shed on the cross for the remission of sins, can we stand before God covered in the righteousness of Christ. The OT points to Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross, very clearly in Isaiah 53 before crucifixion was even known. As I said before, the sacrificial system came to an end in 70 AD, when the Romans put down the Jews’ Great Revolt and destroyed the Temple.

    Many argue the Founders operated under the idea of Natural Law inherited from English Common Law, which was at least in part based on God's moral law. That really was the prevailing view until the late 1800s when Case Law, based on precedent became the norm. Our law is now based on nothing firmer than the most recent opinions of nine judges, or those before them. There are six depictions of Moses the lawgiver on the SCOTUS building itself.

    Christians are free to base their vote on whatever standard they think appropriate, the same for their involvement in any public policy question.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Today Judaism continues without ritual sacrifice. So whatever defect ritual sacrifice might have been seems significantly less than fatal to the worship of the Christian god. Plus, I don't see evidence that ritual sacrifice at that time was a particularly big deal.

    So, I find it hard to propose that ending ritual sacrifice as by Jesus being crucified was a requirement for extending belief in god to all people.
    The justification for our revolution and the fundamentals of our government find their origin in the growing concepts of secular rule. Religion was separated from government years earlier.

    You want to complain about case law??? Christianity behaves in the same way - accepting religious precepts as adjudicated in the past, with only strong argument allowing for change to take place. This is a perfectly valid practice, as it's one of the few ways to ensure any kind of consistency or predictability in the administration of our laws.

    The idea that the very nature of mankind is not "firm" is ridiculous. That nature is the root of the individual rights that we see as so monumentally important - rights not addressed in the Bible in any way whatsoever.
    Our decisions are weighed against the constitution, NOT against the Bible.

    So, you can vote for whatever you want, but if voters make a decision that is unconstitutional, they lose.
     
  9. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The age of consent was 7 in America in 1895. There was no minimum during slavery times.
     
  10. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    What did the biblical God character ever do that was good?
     
  11. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, some states had state churches into the 1820s, the 1A only said the federal congress could not establish a state church.

    Based on the divinely revealed word of God. Take that away, and all you have is the most recent personal preference of five justices.

    The same for your side.
     
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK, that still leaves me thinking I need to state that both religion and our constitutional form of government depend on precedent.

    Overturning previous rulings is something that needs to be taken seriously. Also, there are NUMEROUS cases where the complexity is significant enough that it would be ludicrous to reexamine every decision along the way. Plus, it would leave the public with no serious indicate of what they may and may not do. We can't live like that - we need to know how our laws will be interpreted.

    Our SC does NOT interpret the constitution in light of some god - they interpret it in the light of our founders intent in setting up our government.

    Are you guessing there are 5 Supreme Court justices?
     
  13. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    We had that when it was based on Natural Law.

    Really is that how we got Roe v. Wade? Gay marriage?

    For a majority, yes.
     
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Using past tense like that implies there was a change. That plus the use of "it" makes it hard to know what you mean, so I think I need a clarification.
    Well, we'd have to read those decisions, I suspect.

    In Lawrence v Texas, Scalia stated that once the state found for the defendant there was no possibility of finding grounds against same sex marriage. He was right at least in that subsequent cases did not see those opposed to same sex marriage attempt to use sexual practices as an argument.

    So, that could be seen as previous decisions being respected - Lawrence v Texas wasn't re-litigated.

    Laws against women concerning their bodies face similar problems. There is a gigantic body of law concerning patient's right, the doctor/patient relationship, the responsibilities of doctors, abortion, etc., etc.. And, there is great reluctance to relitigate those past decisions.
    Oh, of course!
     
  15. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    How is the baby part of the woman's body if it is a different gender and blood type?
     
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I think you're informed enough to be able to answer that.

    Just in general on this topic, let's remember that all Americans want there to be fewer abortions.

    The only issue concerns using laws against women as the approach.
     
  17. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    So why did Democrats recently vote to expand abortion to 9 months? Can the elderly be far behind?

    Who speaks for the women who are unborn children?
     
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The point here is that individuals get to make healthcare decisions for themselves.

    You're still totally hung up on laws as the way to approach this issue.

    I'll ignore your nonsense about the "elderly".
     
  19. carlosofcali

    carlosofcali Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Brunei is 67% Sunni Islamic with approximately 10% Christian. According to this article, Shariah law will allow for the stoning death of those involved in gay sex and adultery. Some religions including conservative Christianity seem so primitive and overtly threatening to gay/ lesbian folk. And no wonder that morality is not defined by religion but rather corporations/ businesses and liberal governments.

    "Brunei to Punish Adultery and Gay Sex With Death by Stoning" https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/28/world/asia/brunei-stoning-death.html

    "Homosexuality is already illegal in Brunei, with a punishment of up to 10 years in prison, but the new laws allow for penalties including whipping and stoning. The new laws also introduce amputation of hands or feet as a punishment for robbery."
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
  20. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    So what exactly do Christians have to do with this story? They will probably be on the execute list too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
  21. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Sure they do! So do the white supremacists
     
  22. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I think we can do without assigning lawyers to fetuses!

    God knows where THAT would lead!
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to see Christians take a stand against the Westboro cult and others who interpret their religion as being a justification for assaulting those of other faiths, regardless of those faiths.

    We are a religiously plural nation. So, there are differences in religious beliefs that are sometimes profound. But, there isn't a justification for turning that into violence against others.

    Having Christians take a stand in recognition of that fact would impress me.
     
  24. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    What difference does it matter if women have abortions? It just costs them more than if they had never became pregnant. People who are against abortions appear to want every sex act to result in pregnancy. Just because a woman becomes pregnant is no reason why she should have to give birth to a baby she doesn't want. Is she supposed to live the rest of her life looking at someone she hates?
     
  25. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    A class-action will suffice.
     

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