Civil Disobedience is not a legitimate Protest Tactic

What if you have tried to do everything legally possible to right a wrong, and have gotten nowhere? Since you're against civil disobedience,what do you suggest? How can people fight tyranny by any other nonviolent means?

 

Right so in the 1770's American colonials should have done the proper thing and just petitioned their government quietly without causing too much stir.

What a joke. You're not fit for the freedoms you enjoy.

 

Sir, some of your rather extreme political views seem quite fascist.

 

Yes yes, keep mischaracterizing my positions. That is all all people on this forum love to do.

It is obvious to me now, that the internet is no place for establishmentarians. The internet is the refuge of radicals and loons.

I still have faith in the checks and balances that the founding fathers left us and do not beleive that things are so bad that they require such things as civil disobedience. Our system is not broken, it is working just the way it was designed.

The problem is that people's modern populist sensitiblities are impatient for change and want it right he (*)(*)(*)(*) now and the way the Founding Fathers set up the system, there is no right the (*)(*)(*)(*) now possible.

I deserve the freedoms I was granted but I'm not dumb enough to lose faith in that system.

Virtually everyone I read on the internet has lost faith in the system and seeks radical change to it in one way or another.

Being a proud member of the establishment and believing in the system as it was set up makes me the true patriot.

 

No I'm not fascist, but I'm not a rebel either. I still have faith in and believe in the system of governance passed down from the Founding Fathers and do not beleive that anything going on today is result of the failure of that system of Governance. That makes me the patriot because I"m willing to defend the system our Founding Fathers left us while everyone else is seeking to upend, change or destroy it outright.

 

Give me a (*)(*)(*)(*)ing break. You are a fascist and a corporate drone who think they can never any wrong. You also have silly ideas that its the workers who should constantly be burdened and screwed. Because in your silly little fascist world only corporations and unproductive rich people should have a good life. Your kind is not welcome in America. America welcomes a collective attitude.

And frankly using the founders is a cop out. You have no idea what they wanted or what they would be saying today. And in this modern time what they wanted or how they wanted things run is irrelevant.

 

You're an idiot, and you completely dodged my point.

Civil disobedience is as American as it gets, sorry but you're wrong.

 

So Gandhi's actions are illegitimate? Should his success be questioned? How about Martin Luther King, Jr's? I can respect your opinion, but do you realize that you've trampled on legitimate attitudes towards the tactics of revered icons? There's consensus that MLK's and Gandhi's version of civil disobedience are ideal methods of forwarding an agenda. Therefore, are you a purist of the "order above liberty" ideology?

 

America was founded in civil disobedience, furthermore, the citizens are allowed their guns just in case they need to be "disobedient" again to protect their liberty from the corrupt leaches in Congress.

 

U.S. Constitution.

I support the protestors constitutional rights. But all individuals who actually violate laws should be dealt with in the way we would treat anyone who violated that particular law. Be it a local, state or federal law....

So I don't buy vague complaints about OWS and "civil disobedience". But when there are specific instances where they break specific laws, they should be punished accordingly....and individually.

 

My ass.

But our nation is made up of HUMAN beings; we have a 'nature' that should not be ignored. And while you, I or anyone has to be careful with the labels (such as those you listed above), it is not wrong to actively GUARD AGAINST those very things you mention. It isn't difficult to look at our society, and see some 'elements' of the things you say we are not. In fact, acting as if you are "blind" is the ONLY way you won't see those elements (or a need to keep an eye on the same). EVERYTHING is NOT "okay".

I generally agree, but then we have to come back to reality... and accept that even those things can be 'manipulated' as well. And the beauty of America and the rights afforded us via our Constitution, is that we have a right to voice our opinions and even make a reasonable STINK about things. I get the strong impression that YOU would prefer that people march in-step (as YOU see fit); but that isn't how DEMOCRACY works. Sorry.

Oh, but it depends upon what's being changed/fought. Face it, there are things that need to be addressed/changed, that have been pushed aside and ignored (usually BECAUSE OF MONEY). We've allowed our 'poop' to become SO LOPSIDED or corrupt (and legally so)... that a regular person can BARELY be heard, while those who wield MONEY and sport the evil-delusion that the MANY don't matter (much), are (or were) being heard at SCREAMING VOLUME.

The only way for the average guy to SCREAM BACK (loud enough to be heard), without causing absolute mayhem, is to SHOW IN NUMBERS. You (Silicon) may be against that, or expect that to be as organized as those who plot for years in high places, with ample MONEY to back them... but you would be missing the important points I made above.

People want to MAKE DARNED SURE they are HEARD!! Now, I didn't see YOUR kind of complain from the 'RIGHT' when the Tea Party was making its loudest noises; but you and others were pretty much informed that THIS LOUDER NOISE was coming.

Truth is, people can SEE what humans DO/SAY (pretty much) in real time, due to modern communications. The key word is "HUMANS". People (especially the average-Joe) can see what matters and when other people are essentially being SCREWED. And as much as we (Americans) may dislike it sometimes, those (typically) OBJECTIVE views from those living in other nations, are something I personally welcome. You/I as Americans don't have to agree with every opinion, but we cannot pretend or act as if we have something 'perfect' here (as nice as you/I think or believe it is). That is just stupefying arrogance. Those looking at us from afar, aren't WRONG about all they say; that is obvious, and it WOULD surely be helpful IF we could listen and learn something.

Fine, if you believe that. But please stop being SO DARNED HOSTILE with anything and everyone that disagrees with you. None of us are perfect; nor do we know everything; not ever.

Reasonable and civil will surely do.

Silicon, WE ARE BOTH AMERICANS... and we don't agree about the definitions of all the things you mention above. I've raised my hand to fight for and defend this nation's Constitution, and thus your rights and my own. Just try to accept, that YOUR right to speak your mind, isn't never equivalent to having some right to be 'agreed with'. We live in a world of equals; that is, we're ALL human.

Are you kidding? Are you saying that the HARDEST questions should NOT be asked and answers pursued, considering ALL our nation has been through in the last 10+ years? Are YOU that willing to go lock-step with the status quo, in light of REALITY?! (Come on.)

Well, everyone isn't "tory"; welcome (again) to America. And if we conflict 'internally' or get called-out on it by those who look at us from afar... so be it. People have different views on matters, and that is reality. We don't all get our own way all the time.

You aren't the only one who want things to be better for themselves and their own. If we can't master/implement protest and political compromise... then we might as well get ready for WAR.

 

No, the Supreme Court has very clearly defined the first amendment to be a blanket protection on expression generally, not just words. "Free speech" is an outdated euphamism--"free expression" is the right we actually have.

So? Protest doesn't have to be lawful to be right. What is right and what is lawful are often at odds.

Yeah, right. That's a joke.

 

If this is your attitude, then you should not be surprised or offended when you reap what you sow.

I was watching the Occupy Oakland numbnuts locking arms to prevent people from going inside a bank the other week. What they were doing was blatantly against the law. They were no longer making their opinions known, but they were now attempting to circumvent the law and physically prevent people from doing something they have a legal right to do. The bank has a legal right to operate and the people with accounts there have a legal right to walk in and out as they please. These pissants sure as hell would not have put up with such a display by pro-lifers who were attempting to prevent women from entering abortion clinics. They would be angry because the pro-life protesters would be breaking the law. And yet somehow these Occupy wankers think the law doesn't apply to them the same way it applies to everybody else. They think they are special. They are not.

If you honestly don't have the decency in you to know where to draw the line between voicing your opinion and trying to deny other people their legal rights, then you deserve whatever treatment you receive.

If you're locking arms in front of a building that I have a legal right to enter, I'm going to assume that you want to play Red Rover. I weigh about 200 lbs. And I'll be aiming for the weakest member of your chain. And if you're blocking the door again when I walk back out of the building, you're getting smacked with the door. This goes for people standing in the street blocking traffic too. Unless you're stronger than a car, I suggest you move your ass out of the way. Because I will continue driving. I'm going to go about my daily routine whether you're there or not. And if your actions conflict with my routine and you can't physically stop me, then you're (*)(*)(*)(*)ed.

You don't get to tell me what I can and can't do. You don't get to tell anyone that.

 

People should always remember, your rights end where my rights begin.

 

Where have you seen me expressing surprise at the actions of the haves in reaction to revolt among the have nots? Sicking the police on the have nots is the typical reaction when the haves feel threatened. It's basically a necessary step in undermining the power of the haves. Sadly so. Until the protests can weather abuse by the authorities, they won't be seen as a genuine threat to power.

So go ahead and send in the jackbooted thugs. Get it over with.

Maybe you should think about letting them get their way then. As I said, what is lawful is not the same as what is right.

Why would you expect them to put up with it? No one likes this sort of power wielded against their interests--that's why these sorts of tactics are effective. If they didn't bring people out of their comfort zone, they wouldn't be effective.

How so? "I have the power to do this and you've got nothing to stop me," is practically the basis of political power.

I guess you don't feel so good when other people deny you your rights. Maybe you'll know how they feel then?

And you're liable to get an ass kicking for it. Might does make right in most cases.

If people actually started playing that way, you'll probably get shot when you approach with a vehicle. Not really a wise move in the long run. Sure, maybe the casual murder of another person might make you feel good today, but you won't feel so hot when you get dragged out of the car and beaten for it.

I do if I have the power to keep you from doing it. Anarchy is the basis of all real political power. You can't keep the majority from getting what they want if they're not willing to accept your system.

 

Oh great, it's SillyC*nt with another post about his uber-epic journey from the ghetto to the establishment. As if the first million weren't enough...should I start blowing lines of cocaine now? I don't know how else to stay awake during this YAWNfest, plus I'll probably end up losing less braincells than I would from reading his posts.

In all seriousness, SillyC*nt is somehow incapable of realizing that you can be an establishmentarian while disagreeing with his strange, backwards idea that people aren't criminals if they steal over a billion dollars. In other words, you can be an establishmentarian without being a fat loser who thinks that any criticism of Goldman Sachs is a subversive attack on the nation.

 

Civil Disobedience is Civil Disobedience and breaking the law is exactly that. Civil Disobedience is not a license to break the law.

 

What kind of license? A moral one or a legal one? Obviously there can be no such thing as a legal license to break the law, that's just tautological, but if you say that there can be no moral license then what you're really saying is that the law is always right.

 

"Legitimate" by what standard?

It's the government's modus operandi, it can't be that bad.

But the government is allowed to intimidate and threaten people. Aren't protesters just too (*)(*)(*)(*)ing bad for the government?

Not allowed by whom?

 

Dude, quit crying and go work at McDonald's. I can't bring myself to feel sorry for you when your only solution to your (*)(*)(*)(*)ty life is trying to ruin mine. If you get punched in the mouth, you were probably doing something to provoke it.

Take a look in the mirror, doofus. YOUR people are the thugs here. Ignoring the law and harassing innocent, regular people who are just trying to get to and from work and go about their daily lives.

But you don't even care about that. Because all you're concerned with is your own selfish desires. Other people's lives simply do not matter to you. And you have no problem using them as collateral damage to get your petty little way.

Why does this only work one way? Why don't you think about letting me get my way? I was here first. You're the new bully in town trying to prevent me from doing what I've always done. You're trying to shake me down for my lunch money when all I want is to get through the lunch line.

Now consider this, Tinkerbell. If "what is lawful is not the same as what is right," then by your own argument, me running over a protester is the right thing to do. Because they are keeping me from getting to my job and feeding my family.

Check and mate.

You're contradicting the (*)(*)(*)(*) out of yourself. You're saying people should be angry if pro-lifers prevent access to abortion clinics but that it's also an effective tactic. So should they or should they not link arms and prevent access into abortion clinics just as the OWSers have done with banks. Why or why not?

I am not denying you anything. I am just a regular guy. I have nothing to do with your prissy little beef with rich people. And yet you are dragging me into your petty little argument by preventing me from going to my bank and keeping me from driving to work. This makes you a jerk. Do you not understand that?

If might makes right, then clearly that makes me right when I barrell through your little pansy chain and walk into my bank, right? If you can't stop me, then by your own admission, you're in the wrong.

You might want to take some debate lessons. You really suck at this.

Aren't you guys supposed to be "anti-violence?" Everything you say here further exposes your people for what they truly are; violent and illogical nutjobs who will stop at nothing to get their way. Petty little children who cannot even hold themselves to behavioral standards of mature adults.

Your movement is a joke. In this post alone, you have threatened physical violence and shooting people if the rest of us don't "let you get your way."

I rest my case. You people deserve to be treated like the crazy animals that you are. You are proud of your stupidity and your hypocrisy and there is nothing to be gained from trying to reason with you.

 

Wow, so nice. You use a highly offensive word to women against me and then expect me to take you seriously?

This occupy thing has gone waaaay beyond mere "criticism" and has instead devolved into a violent mob "storm the bastille" mentality complete with torches, pitchforks and dirty peasants to wield them.

There is nothing "bipartisan" or "independent" about the Occupy movement. It has devolved into populist revolt against the Republic itself. When you attack capitalism, you are attacking the republic as our economic system and our Republic are intertwined because only a capitalist system is compatible with a nation that protects private property rights, including the right to keep the majority of ones income.

People keep complaining about bailouts and completely ignore the fact, something that has been pointed out by Bill Clinton time and time again, that if the bailouts didn't happen we'd all right now be living in a depression that would make 1930's look like a boom time.

The only cure for all of our economic ills is austerity and there is no other alternative. We can protest, we can fight it, we can deny it. We can bring the Government to its knees and nothing will ever ever change that inevitable fact.

The fact is our macroeconomic institutions as a whole are more important than individual people. We can live with poverty in America, we cannot live without banks and businesses in America and we cannot live without Globalization. 310 million people cannot survive with a high quality of life without leveraging the entire globe.

 

Spare me your doom and gloom. You are a misanthropic loser who hates everyone, which is why you project all of your failings to some mythical cabal of poor people who are secretly conspiring to destroy America. You really believe that if bulge bracket firms are forced to have derivatives contracts more closely regulated that "capitalism will crumble". THIS is why everyone calls you a dishonest moron, not for your supposed dominance over other members of this forum because you read more security briefs and you happen to be slightly more educated. We have a responsibility to save anything and everything that's too big to fail, right? What about Italy? Are you getting ready to dip into your allegedly huge personal largesse to help bail them out? Apparently, your trashy ghetto dumb ass never learned that stealing over a billion dollars from taxpayers is wrong, which explains why every single one of your posts tries to paint anyone that disagrees with your banal economic opinions as a dangerous subversive. TARP may have been necessary to avoid financial collapse, but you're still a dumb loser and that's why people hate you.

 

I've got a job already, thanks. Two of them, actually.

When you participate in a system that ruins my life, I have no compunctions about turning the tables.

Maybe they should stay home and stop getting involved then.

If you're not with me, you're against me. People who are against my group must lose. That's a basic principle of political organization. I expect others to follow it just like I expect myself to follow it.

It doesn't, but frankly I don't care about the other side. Of course their perspective matters less than mine; otherwise we wouldn't disagree.

Why should I put aside my own interests for you if I have the power to stand in your way and get what I want? That's also a basic principle of political organization.

I find it strange that you consider casual murder to be right. Why murder anyone? You don't have to murder a person to take away their political power.

Because it would both make people angry, and be an effective tactic. The two often go hand in hand. Tactics that make normal people angry, but do not stray too far outside of social norms, are often very good at getting the results you want. For example, a human chain to prevent people from using a bank, in protest of bank policies, is effective because it will anger the bank's customers. Running over bank customers on their way into the bank to protest the bank's policies would not be effective. You need to get the people who use a service angry in order to get them off their ass to call for a resolution.

Frankly if the demands aren't too extreme, most people would just tell the bank to make the changes and get back to business as usual. People love the status quo, and hate things that disrupt the status quo. If there is a simple and reasonable compromise that will return things to something very close to the status quo, even the angry customers will demand it be taken.

I encourage everyone to express their political power through effective tactics. Voting isn't enough. It's a small fraction of an individual's actual political power. Everyone has a right to protest and to make other people's lives inconvenient over political principles. Everyone has a right to agitate for political change.

Evil tends to be fairly banal. Evil on a large scale is usually the result of a system, not rogue individuals in society. The individual participants usually don't do much that's individually horrific--it's only horrific when considered in the context of what everyone else is doing.

In other words, the guy who keeps the prison records isn't directly responsible for the rape that goes on in prison, all he does is push papers around, but he is part of a system that encourages it.

If it didn't (*)(*)(*)(*) you off, it wouldn't be effective.

Assuming you're willing to live with the beating that would follow, were you to charge into me.

Pretty much, which is why I don't tend to put up with people shoving me around.

It's not a debate. I have no need to debate you. I'm stating my perspective. I really have no need to try to convince you of anything.

I can't think of what would make you think I was particularly opposed to rightful retaliation.

If we're really that stubborn and driven, then not only do we have an agenda, but we've got the dedication and commitment that children could never have.

My actual comment was that if people start driving around casually mowing people over with a car, then the likely reaction would be for protestors to start carrying guns and shooting at approaching vehicles. This entire tangent was caused by your suggestion of physically assaulting protestors then some good old fashioned vehicular homicide. I don't think you really want to play the advocating violence angle here. Why escalate? Go stage a counter protest at some natural foods stores or something.