Conscientiousness: The Unheralded Foundation of Success

I spend a lot of time talking to people about what determines success in life, and numerous ideas are thrown out to explain the differences in life outcomes.

Many years ago I falsely assumed, as many still do, that intelligence was of critical importance, but I've since discovered that this is only true in a limited number of circumstances. For the most part, IQ's above 100 are more than adequate for monetary success and are not the critical factor. For example, the average IQ of those in the top decile of income is only 110, or the 68th percentile and the correlation becomes weaker the higher you go. Overall, the correlation is positive, but very weak.

There does seem to be a connection between parental income and success, adjusting for other variables, but it's difficult to isolate all of the variables, so we just don't know (scientifically speaking)

One thing that stands out is conscientiousness. In my personal life, I've found that those who exhibit this personality trait in abundance tend to do well in life, regardless of their ability or parental income--the scientific literature backs this up.

Unfortunately, this trait is highly heritable, and certainly not something you can create by will alone.

Moreover, I'd like to add that someone with all three of these traits has hit the jackpot and will probably never fail in life.

Here's my question to you: how much of our own success is really our own? How much control do people really have over how their lives turn out?

 

but thats an evil religious traith and characteristic.

Not sure how to qualify that, though if I sense any business person is not conscientiousness I bolt. I suppose that means I tend to support what is clearly known as religious people.

 

There are some negatives associated with it, but it is overwhelmingly positive to the person who has the trait. There's a very mild negative correlation with intelligence, and a positive correlation with authoritarianism, but other than that it seems to do nothing but good.

I actually score abysmally low on this trait, so I can attest to what happens when you don't have it lol

 

This seems similar to the debate of free will vs determinism. Traits such as IQ, conscientiousness, and the environmental aspect of parental monetary success may represent the avenues through which you can make a choice. This would mean philosophically that you can't make a choice that is deviant of the tools with which you were presented in life, such as the previously mentioned. This would demonstrate how our perception of our own free will is only on the surface, if we base it on the idea that we can make a choice. This is where determinism will make a strong case in that, your choices are thus limited by the previously mentioned therefore your will is in fact not free.

I think something that should be added is timing, which can be linked to conscientiousness, as you will know when it's a good time to get something out to the general public. But timing is something that is generally out of our control as we can think of an idea, and by the time we choose to enter the market, that idea may already exist. For example, looking back, I made the right decision to sell a house since it was before the market crashed, quite a ways out actually, about two years prior. Can the argument be made that I knew the concept of boom and bust and from that knowledge looked at the market at the time and noticed the signs of an impending bust, maybe. But since that premise has been made, of course my mind may try to replicate the memory to fit the narrative of what was just presented.

So with the way the mind is when dealing with memory, it's difficult to look back and determine that our lives are in our control. Because we will most likely already have come to a conclusion before looking back and tracing steps, thus creating a problem of confirmation bias. So if you already believe in determinism, it is likely that your argument would be constructed around that premise rather than looking at your life through the lens of memory. The same goes if you already believe in free will, your mind would present the memories to you in such a way that would support that argument. Now with that, is it determinism or free will?

 

well aside from human mental frailties subjectivism resulting from familiarity its not that far off base. The gubmint mob draws boundaries and if your free will crosses that line you will pay and pay and pay some more if not be forced behind bars. Polygamy comes to mind. No harm to anyone but the dictatorial overlord bureaucrats.

 

Right, external forces will present their own limitation on the choices one is able to make. But what of the mind or within the person, how are we to tell that our choices are made freely with how our perception changes based on the premise we already agree with. Perhaps intuition would be the better word for such reactions. As often we may intuitively agree with something at face value. Then it becomes the job of our mind to make up the rest of that premise.

 

I think determinism is the likely explanation. Free will is not consistent with how humans behave under various circumstances, but determinism is. If people had free will, I don't think people would be so predictable in so many different contexts. You would expect to see more variation and less predictability, especially given the fact that many people have very similar goals, yet only a much smaller percentage actually achieve them. In other words, tweaking external variables shouldn't have such a profound impact on results, but it does. If people are assuming free will in a more limited sense, then it loses much of its value.

The interesting thing is that, by denying agency, you end up impairing your ability to act. So it actually behooves you to lie to yourself in order to function more effectively. I'm not sure if you are aware, but there are actually studies that show how a belief in determinism can impair cognition lol. It's as if the machine, or you, breaks down when self-awareness reaches a certain level. It's also interesting to note that religious people re better off than us atheists, despite the fact that they are pulling this stuff out of thin air. Supposedly, we are engaging the truth to a greater degree, but it is hurting us, not helping us.

 

That's why automatons are efficient. I think this is an example of what a poster said while we were having a discussion about drugs, I think it went "I work and support my family. I'll leave deep thought to the unemployed". This mentality of just doing the work, like a job or what have you and not being concerned with the philosophical trains of thought can lead to more success than being essentially bogged down by details. However, if one has the capacity to explore those philosophical imperatives, then high IQ may be present in that to grasp such concepts, it takes a degree of intelligence beyond doing what one is told for reward. In this sense, high IQ may need to be tempered, that's when conscientiousness comes in, perhaps?

 

Yeah, comments like his are at the very heart of conscientiousness (and conservatism, to some extent lol). People like that spend very little time thinking about anything that doesn't pertain to the fulfillment of some goal, so they come off as simple-minded to people like us--we come off as lost to them. That being said, I've known some shockingly stupid people, people with very poor reasoning ability, who sail through life without difficulty. I've actually tutored people who struggled mightily with certain academic subjects, pretty basic ideas, who now make tons of money and have very productive lives. They are clean, work out all the time, connect socially, etc. I think we all know those people who studied constantly just to pass their classes who are now crushing it in life because they are so goal-oriented. It is as if their entire being is solely focused on survival and the goals necessary for increasing that.

I think some of it has to do with high intelligence, especially high verbal ability. There are studies showing a huge correlation between mood disorders and those with verbal IQ's over 125 (I think that is the number). There is also a very strong correlation between verbal ability and creativity, which is negatively correlated with conscientiousness. It is no surprise that those who lean conservative are woefully underrepresented in the sciences and arts, fields which require exceptional amounts of ability and creativity. It's also not surprising that those scoring low in that trait and high in open-mindedness are underrepresented in business.

 

I am of the opinion that consciousness, as in an understanding of the deeper and more encompassing aspects of reality, will inevitably lead to "Success" in life. Whether this success manifests in happiness or financial gain is entirely a matter of what the individual finds most important.

 

no one wants to hire a philosophical janitor.

The greator majority of jobs today if given some thought can easily be replaced by machines and robots. That guy is in one of those kinds of jobs. I would compare his response with shutup and put up with it because it pays the bills and keeps the kids fed. A response rooted in fear.

 

That's the source of the old adage of too much of a good thing. Intelligence is good, tantamount to having a civilization, but too much of it, like too much self awareness, may in fact be a detriment. We see this with our body's ability to have our eyes ignore our nose, too much attention to detail would make us blind. It does indeed count where that intelligence is, especially when there's a large manual labor market for jobs. I know I have a low body kinesthetic intelligence, so that very well may be out of my league. However, nonverbal and verbal intelligence being high is required for the ability to communicate ideas and find solutions for abstract problems, which is why I'm in IT and have been in finance to an extent. It all depends on where the demand is in terms of how intelligence is needed. Which again brings us to determinism, knowing one's own limits and acting accordingly may be an expression of determinism. As well as conscientiousness, in order to allow us to determine based on our skill set and capacity, where we should be in a given field.

 

Conscientiousness is for the bottom. Deviousness is useful in management.

Also, if y9ou are too con. it may be better to have a union to do your negotiating.

 

Indeed, a pure survival oriented response. It does however have it's use in terms of what's practical. However, I don't think humanity or the human experience should be defined only by what's practical.

 

In his case its not a goal however, its a necessity. Ha, I guess you said that.

Not sure what you are trying to say about the sciences, however like most life under the british/aristocrat/banking model, science is represented by what makes money, case in point teslas wireless world wide power transmitter.

 

Agreed.

My problem has always been a failure to get through the grind that is required to do the jobs to which I am more suited. For instance, I would do very well in a Phd program of some sort, in most fields, but I lack the conscientiousness, even the minimum level, to make it happen. My emotional volatility prevents me from getting through the hurdles, so I have ended up stuck in (*)(*)(*)(*)ty jobs. I'm actually pretty physically capable and do well in manual labor, but that is a road to nowhere lol. I dropped out of college with 27 credits to go because I just couldn't make myself do it anymore. The external stresses associated with being broke, having no healthcare, and no transportation just drove me insane--I couldn't make myself do it. I was angry all the time and becoming quite unstable, so I had to leave. I tried to get medication, but with no insurance it fell through.

Again, after all that, I look back and have no explanation for my behavior--it just happened.

 

conscientiousness regards matters of conscience, or 'moral' evaluation in which the free will then exercises [your religion] to govern ones personal actions accordingly. Determinism on the other hand tends to draw its boundaries and governance by proscription, usually by some mob agency with guns.

 

I am forced to disagree.

 

I am referring to conscientiousness the way it is used in psychological research.

 

care to expand on that?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientiousness

Read the intro and the behavior section.

 

I think how conscientiousness manifests itself matters too, for example in my particular personality anyway it does so in such a way that it makes me confrontational. Which is how I view most problems as a confrontation, to put them in a context which I can use in terms of my personality. It's worked thus far so if my interpretation is false, I'm lacking the presence of the necessity to change that perspective. I think that's essentially what it comes down to in terms of the choices that drive us, how we interpret the world around us and how it's contextualized to fit our personality in order to find the best way be productive and find success.

 

well ya gotta indoctrinate the slaves then keep them eternally off balance and too busy to do anything about anything.



Morpheus: I imagine that right now, you're feeling a bit like Alice. Hmm? Tumbling down the rabbit hole?

Neo: You could say that.

Morpheus: I see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that's not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?

Neo: No.

Morpheus: Why not?

Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.

Morpheus: I know *exactly* what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Neo: The Matrix.

Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?

Neo: Yes.

Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

Neo: What truth?

Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.

 

Thats what the outward nature of religion is. You see the actions, or behavior and from the actions you judge the religion. They seem to have applied it to everything generally, which leans toward academic fraud since it takes a specific word with a somewhat narrow meaning and expands to take in everything generally. No surprise the confusion regarding what a religion is and is not.

 

I don't think I'm following you.

Are you saying that they are just co-opting religion and calling it conscientiousness?