consumer spending vs our Lib/National government

Discussion in 'Australia, NZ, Pacific' started by m2catter, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Hi,
    it is not new, but felt for quite some time, and it is getting worse:

    Consumer spending at its lowest since the 1990s !!!

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11...-tax-cuts-rba-fail-to-boost-spending/11668912

    Nothing Libs/Nats are doing will save us. People long lost the faith in our government, but choose to stay with the right wingers as Shorten wasn't liked.
    I forecast one thing, the longer Libs/Nationals do what they are best at, namely nada, we will become a banana republic. Not that I believe Labor would be much better.

    I strongly believe we need another direction, certainly away from coal, and away from that never ending economic growth dream.

    We need a different direction, away from the US, as we cannot and shouldn't help them out in future wars, as they most likely will be unjust again.

    Where would you want us to move to, which would be the key to get us out of this viscous circle of staying in the past and repeating the same mistakes all over again?

    Some even see us as a future Asian country, do you share those views?

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/m...e-way-to-asian-influence-20191102-p536uu.html

    What is your dream?
    Reg.
     
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  2. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, yeah, we know, You don’t like the present government…
    Now forgetting about the swipe at the government for NOT controlling the thinking of the people of the nation.

    Consumer spending is generally based upon nothing more than the confidence of the people to actually buy stuff. In a consumer nation, I am not sure exactly what any government can do to change such without actually artificially bolstering the figures to make people confident of the future income and growth.

    Labor at the last election was telling the people that they had to take the nation onto further hurt to bolster the government spending. You have people talking down the economy based upon the international concerns. Of course these factors are important to consider some indication of how people are thinking but I am not convinced.

    However, your point in making change is reasonable. It is important to understand that these statistics are contrived to sway public opinion, not direct indication of economic direction. Government takes great care to inject certain policy to bolster key indicators which in turn helps to promote the statistics to influence people to buy.

    With household borrowing at it’s highest, the question as to if the nation can continue to exist with the current attitude of “I want it now”. The demand for affordable housing, cheap energy, “so called’ free education, free healthcare. People want it all, without paying for it. It is expected that all should be altruistic except the people themselves.

    So, what should be change??? Maybe communism over social design??? Perhaps we could live in a idealist world, but somehow, I don’t think we could agree on what that world should look like. That is the problem here; I don’t believe anybody will ultimately agree on what should change, what should happen and who should bring it about…
     
  3. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    My friend garry,
    how could I do so long without you?
    Consumer index/spending is nothing else than the general trust in a government, be it here or on the moon.
    People long lost their faith in our system, and Labor was not a choice, obviously.
    We need more alternatives, be it for climate change, global warming, mining, ground water, farming or else....
    Just my five cent,
    reg.
     
  4. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    yeah, yeah get over it.

    Oh sorry thought you were talking about the consumer spending, not the consumer spending index since that was in the OP. They are two totally different things.
    Yes, people have lost faith in the system, I concur. None of the present lot listen to the peoples wishes, they promise what they cannot and will not deliver and basically they are just out to be elected to line their pockets.

    This is why alternatives such as One nation, Lambi and other minor parties are making a rise. It is considerably disconcerting that the nation is losing stability in government. The last 11 years has proven to be the most ridiculous with so many stabbing the sitting PM to promote themselves and stupid antics of minor party members promoting rather disgusting behaviour in attempts to promote their own interest.

    We do need alternative, the question is where will it come from and how can the people believe ANY alternative will actually govern for themselves.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  5. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Wow,
    you and me on the same page?
    I think the same will happen here in our country as it did happen in others, and you are right there, more and more minor players will enter the political landscape.
    We are living in uncertain times, with coal being seen as a dirty evil (which it is), the stealing or groundwater handed to the mining industry for next to nothing. Droughts and devastating fires just to name a few.....
    Not that I believe Labor would be much better, but at least the word climate change is now incorporated in their goals.
    But we are who we are, a digging nation, digging holes and selling the dirt....
    We could be so much more,
    reg.
     
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  6. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    I have always said I do not support partisan politics and that clearly ALL these clowns are the same. It was you who decided my political persuasion and decided to vilify me for it.

    We do live in uncertain times, I agree. But we have always done so. It is one of the reasons we need to tread carefully in all we do and remember what the advantages are and why they exist. We also have to remember that those advantages are also disadvantages in other areas. For example, Australia is a continent surrounded by sea. This has made the nation rather secure, with little affect of conflict. However, in global market the cost of transportation in and out of the nation is a rather considerable cost to manufacture that disadvantages the nation considerably.

    It has been said for decades (even before it was stable of economy) Australia has to stop selling it’s soil overseas to other nations because eventually we will be standing ankle deep in sea. But the fact remains that Australia is reliant (be it by design) on mining and will be for decades to come. Coal being the major export, so to change to lithium, copper and so on, but the most important thing to understand is that Australia is expensive to deal with due in part to the fact it is surrounded by sea.

    Nothing can happen overnight, transitions have to be made and stupidly it has to be driven by market rather than government. In other words We as a people have to stand up and make change not just expect the government to do it for us. The biggest problem with demanding government to do anything is that they pander to the votes while taking from the poor. As I continue to say, it is often the issue that everybody wants change, as long as it doesn’t affect them. Over all, government artificially creating social policy detrimentally affects all in the long run.


    We might not like mining, but Australia will not survive without it. HOWEVER, the squandering of the resources to simply line the pockets of the few has taken away the opportunity of the nation to grow in other areas. The question of growing other industry to overtake mining in Australia is clearly pie on the sky.


    Again, Australia is a consumer nation that does not manufacture anything (major) as it cannot do so, to compete with other nations. Talk of transition industry to renewable industry is flat out fraud, Australia will never be able to compete in industry with the rest of the world. BUT Australia has to look to change in the future. This mining boom will end and Australia will be left high and dry.


    That is why this call to stop mining is more irresponsible than anything any government can do. Australia has nothing, talk of net energy provider, don’t kid yourself. Australia is one of the most expensive energy producers in the world, add distance and ocean making it uncompetitive in any area.

    I agree we could do more, and seriously governments of the past have detrimentally changed the economic focus from what Australia can do. Australia was once a major player in providing food to the world. But last few decades politicians chasing the votes for their jobs continue to ignore the rural sector. Sure the nation is in drought at present and fires burn while snow falls in the mountains but the truth is that government will stand in a burnt out patch of ground and through token money at the problem, pretending to be considerate of the plight of farmers. But money is not abundant, how it is spent should be seriously considered.

    We could well do more, We just need to stop demanding others do it for us.
     
  7. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    As far a my memory goes you were always against Labor and the Greens, nothing they said would ever please you.
    So you made it clear for at least 100 times where you stand. We have to live with our differences.....
    Reg.
     
  8. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Well I think we can do without coal, just look at other countries doing other business, as they haven't got coal at all. I think we are so used to digging, that we wouldn't even consider a different future.

    If you want to open a mine in Chile, you have to get your water from desalt plants at your own expense, our mining companies get the water they need for next to zero. Our groundwater is mainly being used by miners, that is not right and needs to stop.

    The drying of the land and rivers has a cause!!!!

    I can see a future with reduced mining, but a heavily improved energy market with exports of solar energy. With the amount of sunshine we are having we will always have more than we need ourselves.....

    Food shortage is the next big business, all we need is basically water, and guess what, more desalt plants will help. It could make us filthy rich. Maybe not Gina R., but the whole country for a change.
    Reg.
     
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  9. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    We can transition out of coal but we need future industry. The difference between you and I here is that, while you look to other nations and say they “other countries doing other business” is that Australia is NOT doing other business and to change it will need to compete with nations who already do it. Clearly, that will fail as I already point out the expense of doing business in Australia is.

    Australia has taken the short sighted position of corporate welfare to bolster the economic books while trying to pretend everything is rosy. Australia compensates exporters to export in competitive nature with the rest of the world (by paying the difference of price due to expense) while removing tariffs producing competitive global market. This promotes the idea to export all products while importing the consumer products. OR in other words the government pays to export while it is cheaper to import. Australia cannot compete in the global market evenly as it already has the highest cost of transport to ANY nation before the cost of production…

    Looking at the mining industry and its practices, Australia walks a fine line here. While the Greens want to complain about the practices and to a major degree misrepresent practices, they will remove ANY contribution Australia will make in renewables. As stated, Australia is foremost abundantly wealthy for certain materials used in manufacture of newest battery technology which has to be mined. Demonising mining methods will drive that part of the industry (which has market edge in Australia) away. Meaning removing any competitive renewable industry just to promote a cause.
    Yes, it is called drought. It has happened before and will happen again.


    Australia will never be exporter of energy let alone any solar energy industry. Australia is following the rest of the world in these areas. Cost will ALWAYS outstrip the competitiveness of industries with competition.

    Food shortage is not the next business, it is current affair. More and more people are fighting just to feed their family in AUSTRALIA. Some people take it for granted their next meal. BUT there is considerable amount of people and families who have to decide, should they pay their power bill today, or eat tomorrow. AND the numbers are growing alarmingly. Australia is considerably good in this area (relatively) due to its welfare state, but money is not abundant. Other nations the people starve in the streets while Australians try tell them how to live. Is it any wonder other nations would prefer to wipe the smugness of Australia’s face???

    I am not sure why you would single out Gina Rinehart but the fact of the matter is that desal plants have been built and still lay dormant due to cost of operation. Their needs to be some semblance of strategy to rebuild the farming sector and promote production of food over putting solar panels in the middle of paddocks used to grow food…
     
  10. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Firstly,
    I believe we can do better than only digging holes. And I think money can be earned with renewable energy, not sure why you think we can't compete.
    Secondly,
    I still think that while the world is heading towards electric cars, hydro is the way to go. Rare earth (as well as oil) should be used for a better cause.
    Thirdly,
    those droughts we are facing now are man made, extracting ground water for Gina and her mates as well as clearing the land comes at a cost, not to mention globally rising temperatures. These problems are caused by man, it's called man made !!!!
    Reg.

     
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  11. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My dream is that we don't join any God-awful Pacific Union, that we maintain our sovereignty, that we move to a mix of nuclear and solar for energy, that we move big time into desalination, and that we play it Switzerland when it comes to geopolitics.
     
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  12. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Not quite sure whether staying neutral is the right answer, also nuclear must go, long term goal, imho.
    Have you heard about the hydro news today? I was hoping for that kind of news for the last 20 years, I am stoked.....

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/bat...ydrogen-fork-in-the-road-20191119-p53c0m.html

    It might be hydrogen after all,
    Reg.
     
  13. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Well, think about it… What does Australia produce??? The reason Australia has become a consumer nation is because it cannot compete. Cost of manufacture is some of the highest in the world that can only be negated by devaluing the economy to make it competitive. THEN, it has to be transported by Air and sea to every other nation… Competition can only occur on equal playing field and Australia doesn’t have it.
    It is heading that way, but consider this, if you live in England you can drive from coast to coast and back again, on one charge of a $140k electric car. In Australia you cannot travel between capital cities.

    So OK, let us stop using fossil fuels tomorrow. Most nations will adapt even though it be difficult but how will you cope (since you claim to live in rural WA, I believe) where just getting food to the market will take weeks.

    It is idealistic not to consider different people have different needs.
    Wow, extracting Ground water has become your great mantra. How about the contamination of ground water by firefighting foam??? I notice everybody is hiding their head in the sand over that. Even the greens…
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  14. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Hydro??? Aren't you complaining drought... Hydro needs water...
     
  15. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, unfortunately I think it is too idealistic to believe this could happen while others want to pretend they are globalists.
     
  16. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    desalt....
     
  17. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    First,
    other nations can build things and export them, look at the bloody Europeans. Are we more stupid?
    Secondly,
    we cannot stop petrol/diesel powered cars tomorrow, that is clear, and as I have stated before I am not sure whether electric cars are the way to go, maybe for the city slickers. Hydro is my bet, ore maybe both. The market will sort it!!!!
    Thirdly,
    why someone would use the argument of foam contaminating the ground water is beyond me:
    If we would have more ground water, that is if mining companies had to use their own water from desalt plants we would have less drastic fires (less foam needed) and droughts, of course that goes hand in hand with reforestation. And, not to forget, coal mining need to be phased out!
    But we were there before, so I think we have to leave it there,
    Reg.
     
  18. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All over the world, politicians are hated more than ever. Trump is actually doing relatively well on 44%, Ardern is on 38% for some perspective.

    A side effect of this is that parties are unable to achieve majorities in both houses of the legislature in majoritarian nations like ours.

    When you can't pursue governmental business you tend to fail at your promises and people want you ousted.

    Get used to it.
     
  19. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hydrogen is not an energy source, it is energy storage, much like a battery pack, and they have similar issues - namely that you only get back about 60% of the kWh you put in.
     
  20. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Yes they can, FAR cheaper than Australia can. If you want to compete with them you have to at least start equally. You do know how business works don't you???

    Hydro, electric, hot air, fart power… it doesn’t matter the point remains the same, while technology is sufficient enough to some areas it is distinctly lacking in others, Australia being one of them.

    Now considering most of this issue is driven by city dwelling people who do not comprehend the situation just outside of the suburb two over. In Australia, where majority of the population and political representation live in the city, people don’t travel more than 50km a day. These people could well live with simple electric cars which has pushed the instillation of recharging stations in rural sectors so they can charge their cars on their journey. These are the people who set your policy, just how will you convince people who might know but cannot comprehend where their milk comes from to instil infrastructure they don’t need to placate potential future transport needs???

    It is interesting though, you say the market will sort it out while the market is pandering majority not the need of the nation.
    Why??? Aren’t you using ground water as cause for drought??? Oh, it is alright to make stupid claims on mining practices, such as contamination of the ground water and trying to claim cause and effect on what ground water does, yet you ignore the contamination from other sources.

    I think this part of the comment shows little understanding of how the ground water works and the fact it fluctuates not causing drought or even drought proofing land but as being caused by drought…
     
  21. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Umm so you want to use MORE power to produce clean water as well as pump it (which would be necessary) to then put in hydro system to produce far less power than you needed to create the water???

    Some how, I don't think you thought that one through to well. BUT I will say, at least your offering alternatives.
     
  22. garry17

    garry17 Well-Known Member

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    Oh so true. I would, however, suggest the pole results flawed on US political scene. If we could accept them before last election, Trump should have been tossed to the gutter. But he was elected as President of the USA…

    BUT I do agree with the point, but Australia does need change. I might not like Trump but the nation is pumping along, even though he has made some very stupid comments.

    The issue comes back to trusting that the elected government is working in the interest of the nation and not self-interest. For some time the issue of self-interest has been raised and while I think we can agree, on the past it is debatable. It has been possibly the last 11 Years it has become abundantly clear that the nation has not been the government’s priority.

    I have a rather elevated opinion of Albanese at present, he appears to me to be somebody who could well be worth consideration. He is talking the right talk at the moment but he is one person. He needs to bring his party along,

    I would hope we move away from the idealist movement and return to reality, in other words I hope I don’t have to get use to the current lot acting in the current methods…
     
  23. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Garry,
    I was worried will reach the point of o return....
    Sometimes I wish I'd be wrong.....
    Reg.
     
  24. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    My power comes from solar and wind, both are for free. How can someone be so negative and at the same time looking through blackened glasses? Oh, maybe that's the answer. What happened in your life for you being so negative?
    Can't you see any positive in renewables? Man flew to the moon 50 years ago, it can be done, trust me!
    Reg.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    STOP SHOPPING! STOP TRAVELLING!
     

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