Death penalty and Christians

Well, the 5th commandment is thou shalt not murder. That said, I'm against the death penalty as a Christian. I have no problem with killing for self-defense (i.e. to stop another murder or major bodily harm of myself or others). Also, in Catholic theology, the 6th Commandment is "Thou shalt not commit adultery." "Thou shalt not murder" is the 5th commandment.

 

Considering the number of Catholics/Christians in support of abortion, which the Pope decries, I'd say your question was answered long ago.

 

Oops, 5th Commandment not 6th

 

Then they should just become Catholic. The office of Pope is an unbiblical concept, you complain about Trump, see the Borgia Popes, they were basically mafioso.

Yet the Bible says specifically not to do that with our fallen and finite natures, God said He would decide it at the last Judgement. What, you want a religious test for public office? Did you, and this pope, similarly oppose Clinton for his lies and immorality?

 

Again, I am not defending the past atrocities of the papal office but the bishop of Rome has historic validity.

 

What historical validity did Alexander VI have? He didn't seem to be a genuine Christian, let alone the leader of worldwide Christianity. Long before the Reformation, the Orthodox Church split due to papal overreach.

 

Did Paul ever walk on water or command a tree to uproot itself and toss itself into the sea? Paul never did any of the things his buddies said that Jesus said that a true believer can do. And no one else has either. That means that the story is a hoax.

 

Get real and learn the fairy tale. Those are not part of the real Ten Commandments. Read the Bible.

 

Yes but other Christians accept that the Roman See is a preeminent voice of the faith but equal to other church leaders. The early Protestants did not want to leave the Catholic church and made it clear that they accepted the Holy See minus corruption. Pope Leo was the "Trump" of that era. It seems the Orthodox patriarchs/ Lutheran-Anglican primates don't take the role of universal pastor of the church. Pope Benedict was a brilliant ecumenism and Francis is modern day Francis of Assisi but the child sex abuse has shaken the faithful. The church is dying and I hate to say that.

 

Yes, Luther said he would have given the Pope his authority if he had been right on salvation. When you get that wrong you don't have much. Luther was asked if he was afraid the Reformation would lead to a situation where there were a lot of denominations, some of which would be in error. He responded that that the one church of the time was already in error.

I hate to see that also even though I'm not a Catholic, but who knows if a future rebound isn't possible. Ancient Israel was in a constant cycle of apostasy and faithfulness.

Francis may be complicit in enabling and covering up some of these abusers.

 

Nonsense, here are seven miracles performed by Paul:

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Miracles-Of-Paul

Only if you discount contrary testimony. That is circular reasoning.

Why would the Apostles die for a hoax? Would you? From a book I recently read:

"Something earth-shattering must have happened to turn a group of sniveling, confused, bumbling, hiding, fearful men intent on saving their own skin into apostles who lived radically and boldly, each separately willing to be brutally killed to proclaim the resurrection of Jesus. The most compelling explanation I can find is that the testimony of the apostles must be true. According to NT Wright, every other ancient messianic movement upon the death of their leader either dissolved or found a new leader to be their appointed messiah. It would’ve made sense if the disciples retreated into obscurity or proclaimed James, the brother of Jesus, as the new, better hope of the world. But they didn’t."

 

A very positive movement is that Christians are uniting. Anglicans/ Methodist are now in full communion. Presbyterian/ Reformed ministers can serve Lutheran parishes. I think nearly all Protestants can freely take communion in any Christian church. Lutherans/ Anglicans total 159 million members and view capital punishment as allowed in Scripture/ Confessions but should not be practiced. That is what the governor [Catholic] decided in commuting sentences. The risk of executing just one innocent man eliminates that option. What's wrong with life in prison?

 

What if someone is wrongly sentenced to life in prison? Why should taxpayers pay $40K a year for decades for a murderer? The death sentence certainly eliminates recidivism. I like the OT model of punishment, death for serious cases and restitution to the victim for the rest.

When you talk about Anglicans or Lutherans, you need to specify 'some'. ELCA does not represent all Lutherans, and ECUSA represents a minority position in the Anglican Communion.

 

My interest in Lutherans/ Episcopalians came later in life and primarily due to in-laws. Seems there were always Lutherans on retreats I participated in and recall worship w/ members of Integrity [Gay Episcopalians] years ago. Admittedly I am not too knowledgeable but was exposed to the Catholic-Lutheran dialogue going back to Vatican 2. The Lutheran World Federation accounts for 90% of Lutherans worldwide. The archbishop of Uppsala [Sweden] is like the archbishop of Canterbury; both primates equal to the pope. Lutherans are primarily European Christians unlike the huge number of Anglicans in Africa. But both churches are in full-communion; an Anglican bishop can ordain a Lutheran priest and visa versa. As a result of the agreements in the Lutheran-Catholic reunion/ Lutheran-Catholic Common
Commemoration of the Reformation in 2017 [http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.htmlall] all Lutherans except a small minority practice apostolic succession and seek re-entry into the Catholic Church under the guidance of the pope.

 

SOME Anglicans. The Anglican Church in North America isn't is communion with ELCA, there have been talks with the LCMS. And ACNA isn't some fringe group, the Archbishop of ACNA Foley Beach was recently elected head of GAFCON (Global Anglican Fellowship), which is an orthodox Anglican group representing two thirds of the 70,000,000 Anglican Communion.

 

Missouri Synod is the real Lutheran church.

 

Luther would agree, with an honorary mention to the Wisconsin Synod.

 

Those synods mentioned represent a small fraction of world-wide Lutherans though I believe they did participate in Catholic-Lutheran dialogue. Notable however is that Missouri/ Wisconsin synods did not sign the Joint Declaration on Doctrine where past condemnations of Catholics and visa versa were lifted. Based on the resolutions/ recommendations Lutherans and Catholics can be reunited but the issue of female clergy and same-sex marriage has delayed the reunion.

 

When Cain Slew Abel did God smite him dead?

 

Why would He, it was long before those commandments were given to the theocracy of Israel. He doesn't smite murderers dead today either.

 

American Evangelicals support the position of acknowledging biblical custom but urge the end of capital punishment:

"As evangelicals, we believe that moral revulsion or distaste for the death penalty is not a sufficient reason to oppose it. But leaders from various parts of the evangelical family have made a biblical and theological case either against the death penalty or against its continued use in a society where biblical standards of justice are difficult to reach. In Mosaic Law, standards of evidence were stringent, requiring a minimum of two eyewitnesses who were willing to stake their own lives on the truthfulness of their testimony and who would initiate the execution by “casting the first stone.” Circumstantial evidence was not permitted. The contemporary American system is unlikely to reach such standards of evidence, and given the utter seriousness of capital crimes, the alarming frequency of post-conviction exonerations leads to calls for radical reform." https://www.nae.net/capital-punishment-2/

 

New Zealand does not have the death penalty. The 2012 Norway mass murderer wants death but will instead sit in a cell until he dies. Both nations are historically Christian.

 

I just got through reading a true story by John Grisham, The Innocent Man.

It's a horrifying story of how a man was convicted of murder in a small rural town in Oklahoma by a crooked lying prosecutor. It also exposed the collusion of the police,

judges, expert witnesses, jailhouse snitches, where they all ganged up to convict a man who was innocent. He received the death penalty. Lots of self-righteous holy rollers believed he was guilty.

I will never forget this story.

 

The map suggests Bible-belt states prefer revenge over sanctity of life. Law versus Gospel.

 

By that reasoning we should just close down our justice system because it isn't perfect, right?