Debate: Socialism vs. Capitalism

For decades we have not had a good debate between socialism and capitalism. The following video is a necessary corrective that should be watched all Americans. Listen, Pause and Reflect ...

 

Do you have any personal thoughts do you wish to offer on the video?

 

Which one allows me more personal choice in how much I participate?

 

I like things like toilet paper, electricity, and walking dogs instead of eating them.

I like bread waiting for me in a line instead of me waiting for bread in a line so for me the choice is clear

 

Oh, please, I can't take another one of those. This topic has been beaten to death with always the same result. Plus, Wolff, one of the guys from the video, might have some good ideas, but he is a little bit of a nut.

 

Well like it or not, as Professor Wolf reminds us, every economic system that has dominated the whole globe had three phases: it was born, it evolved over time and then exhausted itself and passed away. There is nothing written in the stars that says capitalism as a system will live forever. That is a fact proven by history.

 

Capitalism as a 'system', no. But the concept of personal ownership and control of resource for the interest of personal prosperity (aka the most basic principle of capitalism) has always existed and isn't going anywhere in the forseeable future. The harder socialism seeks to undermine this basic concept by placing ownership of more and more resource under the control of some type of committe (aka collectivism), the more it is resisted. That is also proven by history.

 

private ownership is a good and necessary thing. Those are not the issues I have with capitalism, nor does it define capitalism. Both capitalism and socialism need to go away. Both systems are designed to keep the wealthy wealthy, and keep everyone else in line.

it is the concepts of debt and interest that makes capitalism such a corrupt and broken system. Banks make money literally out of nothing, then lend the imaginary money out, as debt. Then they charge interest on this money that wasn’t real in the first place and make MORE money. Then they use all this imaginary money to buy up everything…. Corporations and banks are gobbling up everything… land, smaller companies, and finance politicians and buy elections, all to make conditions more favorable for themself.

private property is awesome and absolutely essential for a free society. But capitalism is as corrupt as socialism is. It’s time for a new way.

 

socialism (even chinese communism) can include private property and free markets which are neither necessary nor sufficient in capitalism.

capitalism includes management of the economy and businesses and much property by some type of committee.

 

What you refer to as capitalism, i call corporatism. If what you're describing as bad is capitalism, then what do we call the system it sounds like we both prefer?

we might not be using the same terminology. see above

 

Equitable economy? One where money is based on the actual value of goods, services, and labor. Not one where energy is just siphoned to elites.

the elimination of interest would mean the only way for things like corporations to come into being would be through cooperation of individuals pooling their assets. That means there would be no capitalist that owned massive corporations but groups of owners that elect managers among themselves, and share profits, as they all own the business.

 

Thats all so subjective tho (like the meaning of 'capitalism' apparently). I don't think the elimination of interest is possible. Sure we could ban the charging of interest on loans, but everything inherently gains or loses interest as demand fluctuates.

 

It gains or loses value, not interest. Interest is that debt just constantly snowballing in value with absolutely no work being accomplished. It is the perfect scam for capitalists and elites to claim a larger share of the total pie by far than they should be entitled too, and it concentrates all of that monetary power into very few hands, to the point where it becomes impossible to compete like the free market was originally intended, as we see in massive banks and corporations. It’s a scam. It is just so ingrained in society now that it seems normal, it it completely rigs the game.

 

I dunno about that. If I sell my property for more than I bought it for even though I didn't improve it, then I gained interest on my investment. It only increased in value because demand increased. Isn't that interest?

 

Think of interest as a service fee. As soon as we moved from agrarian villages into towns and cities, we became dependent upon a service culture. We began to pay rents for things we wouldn't otherwise - whether it's rent for our residence, or to access the skills of the tiler who did your new kitchen backsplash. Storing our money in a secure facility (ie a bank) is just another paid service/rent/interest.

It's not in any way a scam. It's all very transparent, and understood by all who participate.

 

Yes, but he's saying you should not be able to make money that way.

People who take that position always imagine that it's free money - virtually stolen from the poor. They never factor in what you had to do to obtain that investment in the first place - nor any ongoing labour involved.

 

If you are talking about inflation, that only occurs because of interest yes, but that is not interest in itself. The ACTUAL value has not changed, it is just that with more money in circulation, each dollar is worth less. Inflation is tied in with the concept of interest for sure, but you are still getting the same value for your house adjusted for inflation.

Interest would be like with a car you buy, say at a terrible rate of 15% interest annually, over 7 years. Say the car is worth 30,000. I’m not going to do the math out exactly, but you would end up paying around twice the actual value. That’s not the price of the car adjusted for inflation 5 years later, which would still reflect the actual value... its twice what it is actually worth. The bank just got twice the money that car was actually worth, doing absolutely nothing for that money except exist, while the money for the loan that allowed for the purchase of the car in the first place was made out of thin air. So the bank magically gets twice what that car was worth in money from literally doing nothing for it.

Then, they will turn around with that money that came from nowhere, and purchase other forms of capital that will create more revenue... rinse and repeat.

 

Capitalism as in the trade of resources via commerce or war, is the only economic model which has been a constant since we came down out of the trees. For 99.9% of human history, we have formed small collectives which function within a broader context of capitalism. It's literally the IDEAL human state - given it's the one which has resulted in seven billion of us.

 

What does a banker do when he loans out money that doesn’t exist? Not a damn thing. And then he collects interest on that loan, along with the repayment of the loan. It’s a scam, a way to concentrate wealth into the hands of a few elites.

 

No, I totally agree with what you are talking about. Rents, fees, etc, are all well and good. I am talking about debts based on nothing that interest is charged for. That is how banks generate wealth.

 

1) That's not how it works. One of my properties has increased in value at around 16% PER YEAR for the past few years. That's way higher and faster than inflation.

2) Cars are depreciating assets, property is an appreciating asset. In both cases, if you borrow money from a bank to pay for them, the interest you pay is the fee for that service. If you're insane enough to borrow money for a depreciating asset, you have (for reasons known only to yourself) chosen to hand over a significant amount of money to the bank, basically as a gift. The bank didn't force you to do that - you volunteered those funds. It can't be classified as anything sinister, since you knew the math going in. You knew that you would pay out far more than what you are left with. The opposite is true in property. The purchaser ultimately makes more profit than the bank, despite having paid that interest (fee for service).

 

Only when people are silly enough to borrow in that format (on depreciating assets). That's a free and clear choice, and absolutely a luxury in terms of how much of your own money you're happy to lose to the deal.

On the flip side, PEOPLE generate wealth by paying interest to a bank to borrow on appreciating assets.

It's a trade, and we know the rules of engagement going in. It's all very 'fair'.

 

The car was just an off the cuff example.

The problem, once again, is when banks make a loan, of money they do not have, created out of literally nothing, based on nothing. They then charge interest on this loan that is based on nothing. They get paid back the loan that was based on nothing along with interest on that loan. They have just generated a lot of money for absolutely no work done. This is how banks make so much money in the US, and I suspect around the rest of the world.

 

Irrelevant. We don't need to know how or why they do what they do to provide the services we choose to avail ourselves of, or how much money they make from their business. All we need to know is that OUR use of THEIR labour (service) can make US rich. We pay a fee to access the large sums of money we need to invest effectively. Whatever they make from it is beside the point - WE make money from the exchange. We come out of it just as much winners as they do. That's the ideal trade, from any angle.

 

Holy ****, it’s not irrelevant, it is literally the source of 90% of the world’s problems today, from poverty, inequality, environmental issues, wars, corrupt governments and populations, lobbying, the military industrial complex, corporations more powerful than some nations, etc etc.

“We do not need to know how or why...”. .. I can’t think of a more irresponsible statement. We absolutely need to know and understand what is driving the dynamics of wealth and power in this world.

“Nothing to see here folks, move along”....