Democrat's latest clever strategy at gun control

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by kazenatsu, Apr 12, 2022.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Democrat's latest sly strategy to implement gun control is to make it illegal for individuals to be able to make a gun themselves, unless that gun has a serial number on it, in which that serial number has been issued by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer.

    Since the federal license can be denied, and since an individual with a license is required by law to keep records, this will give government greater control.

    And since the Biden Administration's proposed law includes language that defines all separate gun parts as "firearms", it is not only the gun itself that would have to have a serial number, and not only one specific part (the "receiver"), but the different parts of that gun would each need serial numbers on them.

    The news media is referring to this with phrases such as "ghost guns" or "untraceable guns", which doesn't really tell the reader exactly what the proposed law would actually do.
    (The reason the news is doing this is because they dishonestly want to make Americans think this proposed law is reasonable and not make readers opposed to it)

    According to Gifford's:
    "Untraceable firearm" means any firearm manufactured after July 1, 2019, that is not an antique firearm and that cannot be traced by law enforcement by means of a serial number affixed to the firearm by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer.

    Ghost Guns | Giffords

    Previously, the possibility of an individual making their own gun was seen as a last resort option by gun rights supporters as a way for people to have a gun without the information about the existence of that gun and the owner being available to the government.

    Gun rights supporters have good reason to fear that if government has access to information on all guns legally owned by people, that it would be very easy for government to be able to later confiscate the guns. Or those individuals who legally own guns might even risk suffering personal repercussions, under a different political climate in the future.

    Current federal law requires all guns that are sold (or transferred, with some limited exceptions) to have to go through federally licensed gun dealers. These federally licensed gun dealers are required to keep records of the serial numbers on the gun and the identity of the person the gun was sold to. They are required by law to keep these records for 20 years from the date of purchase, or they can hand over the records to the government if they go out of business, which would absolve them of any further responsibility to keep the records.

    Why does the government want them to keep these records? The supposed reason is so the records can be available to law enforcement if they want to track where a specific gun came from. A judge has the legal power to threaten the individual with prison if this individual does not make available a record connected to a specific gun, when the judge orders it.

    Gun rights supporters fought hard for these records not to be required to all automatically have to be given to government, where they would be held in a giant database.

    One of the things Democrats want to change is to require the federally licensed gun dealer to be required to give their records to the government when their license comes to an end.

    This would render moot the provision that gun rights supporters fought hard for, and is also not really so different from records being required to be given to the government immediately. It would only involve a long time delay.
    But it is worse than that because it is possible the license might not come to an end voluntarily.
    The Biden Administration has been trying to change the ATF rules to make it easier for gun dealers to have their license revoked for very small alleged infractions or violations.
    (These rules are not laws but regulations that can be changed by a government official, but these regulations were given the same power as law)

    All this of course would make it much easier for the government to collect information about which individual people guns were legally sold to.

    And what really is the point of this proposed change? If we are being logical, it is actually difficult to make the argument that this would help keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

    Rather more likely it is an attempt to start putting laws in place to be able to exert more control in the future over legal gun owners.

    This law is going to be used as a springboard for more laws in the future, further tightening and narrowing the gaps with each new law. And just think, with some executive action from whomever is holding the office of President, the government department could temporarily revoke all the licenses in a wide regional area and the law would require all the records would have to be given to the government. They would know the names and identities of exactly who legally bought guns, and which individual guns.

    From there it would be an easy road to either wholescale confiscation, or selected individual cases of confiscation.

    They will try to sneak this law in, and the news media is not going to make a big deal out of it, trying to prevent the alarms from sounding.

    Constitutional rights wiped away with a little law that few people are paying attention to.

    further sources:
    Biden aims at 'ghost gun' violence with new federal rule (wdsu.com)
    Maintaining Records | Giffords
     
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  2. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are already 2 threads on this......
     
  3. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Having records of gun owners, so they are traceable, when a gun is used in a crime, is "greater control?" Then great, I'm all for the kind of control, that just gets violent criminals, off the streets.

    That is ludicrous paranoia. There are more private guns, in the U.S., than there are people-- give me a break! And you're not even an American, are you, or even live here?

    As it should be. FYI-- this only makes sense. Americans should not need to tie one of law enforcement's hands, behind its back, because of some peoples' paranoid delusions. To wit:

    Yeah, that's gonna happen.


    I think you're wrong: people will notice, I believe, that Biden is finally taking a common sense step to deal with the clear criminal problem of unmarked, and undetectable ghost guns, which has existed for years, while Congress has just wrung it's hands, saying there was nothing it could do (Republicans, that is, for the most part), and past Administrations have been feckless.

    Good on you, Biden!
     
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  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How will tracing legal guns help prevent crime?

    You do realize any criminals could deface the serial numbers? And anyone illegally selling guns is not going to see a reason to keep records or add serial numbers.

    This seems to be either pure stupidity (I doubt it), or it seems very much designed to try to place more control on legal owners rather than criminals.
     
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This law will not help get violent criminals off the streets. They will already be arrested for committing whatever crime it is they committed, or if they are a previous criminal, it will already have been illegal for them to have a gun, whether that gun is traceable or not.
     
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  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Current law already requires that the "receiver" (that's the most primary main essential part of a gun) be marked, if that gun is sold.
    A person making guns and illegally selling to persons who are not legally allowed to buy them is not going to mark those guns.

    So what is it exactly that you think this law would do?


    All this seems to be a lie. A very thinly veiled one. I don't know if common people like you actually believe it, but if you do it seems you haven't thought about it very much.

    I have no doubt that the people who drafted this law did not believe that; and I doubt they came up with the idea for this law out of pure stupidity. Rather there's a scheme behind it. The question is, will members of the public be suckers enough to fall for it. Because it's subtle and not altogether totally obvious. (Clever schemes rarely are obvious, and the more complicated it is the less likely common people will be to understand it)
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
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  7. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    What? Regardless of your theories, being able to trace gun serial numbers to their owners HAS enabled police to find criminals, who were not already in government custody. So, I prefer to deal in facts-- tell me when your argument can deal with those facts.
     
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So many times in the past those on the Progressive Left flat out denied something was going to happen and called the other side crazy for believing it could happen. But then years later when it had become totally obvious it was going to happen, they changed their tune and said "So what?"
     
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  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It would be a very unusual and unlikely situation.

    No criminal is going to give a gun to another criminal knowing that gun can be traced back to them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
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  10. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    I think the fundamental flaw in your thinking, is that people who sell guns illegally are, primarily, MANUFACTURERS of those weapons. In other words, unless they are making the guns from basic, far from finished materials, there are already going to be serial numbers. If someone is selling ghost gun kits but w/out serial numbers, this updating of regulations, will allow the law to prosecute the person, & take that illicit seller, out of commission.
     
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They can claim the guns were stolen, or simply deface the serial numbers off the gun.

    Counterfeiting of serial numbers and falsified records could also be a possibility. For example, if a dealer sells to many people and one of those people dies, then all the serial numbers reported for that person who has now died could then be used. If the dealer is rotten, or some other criminal gets his hands on the dealer's records. Or even if the criminal just sees the serial number on another owner's gun and sees what type of gun it is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
  12. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    You mean, things like an autocrat, coming to power, in our politics? It doesn't seem that the Left's reaction, to my mind, has just been, "So what?"
     
  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    they are banning the selling of gun kits without serial numbers, people can still make the guns
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
  14. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    true, but most criminals are just not that smart
     
  15. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    What this really is, is the ATF not really liking that people can get guns without them knowing about it.

    Name most likely are keeping records even though it's illegal for them to do so on anybody that buys a gun from a federally licensed firearm dealer.

    I think the only way to the store freedom is to dissolve that agency completely or I don't know why it exists in the first place.
     
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  16. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    But the question is why do parts need a serial number they're not firearms not according to the law.
     
  17. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh, so serial numbers on weapons have not directly led to many, or any, arrests for crimes, committed with those weapons, because all criminals are so meticulous about attending to every detail that could possibly link them to a crime, huh? You sure you wanna go with that?
     
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's not a very good argument. Maybe they aren't smart enough then not to break the law in the first place.

    (And then if they do get punished, if they do it again they will figure out what they did wrong and what it was that led to them being caught)
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
  19. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No one is going to buy guns on behalf of someone else who is not legally allowed to buy or have them, and then just leave the serial numbers on the gun, that would allow the police to trace it to them.

    Or they will just claim all their guns were stolen in a burglary, to try to avoid responsibility.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
  20. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    we got people that post video of their crimes, guess we should ban that as evidence in court, not fair to stupid crooks

    why would a person care if they were using the gun for legal purposes if it has a serial number on it or not?
     
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  21. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    that doesn't get violent criminals off the street it actually doesn't have anything to do with them.

    If they want an untraceable gun they just remove the serial number. Many pistols only component that needs a serial number is plastic and the serial number is either in Boston the plastic or a piece of metal that's embedded in it I can just chisel out that metal and Bam ghost gun.

    This has nothing to do with making them traceable or crime or any of that it has to do with interfering with people's rights to own firearms.

    The people who build firearms with parts they order they're not doing that the flood the streets with firearms. The so-called ghost guns that are recovered by law enforcement are actually just regular pistols mostly that the serial number has been removed from that you can still do that even if they're required to put it on there.



    the belief that this says anything to do with crime like some Doug that wants to hold women up at gunpoint in the park at night will spend 5,000 on components to build a gun is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard.

    They'll probably just buy some $70 piece of pawn store junk because it doesn't matter to them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
  22. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Your theorizing about what people would do, doesn't answer my question, about what actually happens now, in practice.




    EDIT: Same reply to you, Polly--
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
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  23. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is a currently proposed law being pushed by the Biden Administration that would legally define every part as a "firearm". Once that happens, it would combine together with already existing law to require that every part have a serial number.

    "The new rule changes the current definition of a firearm under federal law to include unfinished parts, like the frame of a handgun or the receiver of a long gun. It says those parts must be licensed and include serial numbers.
    ...
    Speaking at the White House, Biden highlighted the Justice Department's work to finalize new regulations to crack down on ghost guns... the announcement on guns highlights the limits of Biden's influence to push a sweeping congressional overhaul of the nation's firearm laws..."​

    Biden aims at 'ghost gun' violence with new federal rule (wdsu.com)

    The Biden Administration thinks they might not even have to get Congress to pass any new law to do this. The President would nominate a radical activist to the ATF and get that new head of the department to enact a rule change. Apparently due to the way current law was written, it might even be legal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
  24. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    why would a legal gun owner care?
     
  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It seems perfectly reasonable to consider what could happen, when considering what a change in law could mean.

    Especially when a law almost seems like it could be written to be able to do that thing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
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