Did mueller play manafort?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by ARDY, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    as we know, the special counsel canceled muellers plea deal for alleged lying
    It is a little perplexing to understand why this all happened

    The obvious initial take was that manafort and trump had played mueller
    In this scenario... manafort never intended to cooperate
    He wanted to get more intelligence about the councils interests
    He would share that with team trump
    Then trump would pardon manafort to get him off the hook
    ——and it sort of looked like that is how it was going
    But this scenario makes no sense because manafort also pleaded guilty to state crimes that trump cannot pardon. So manafort is headed to jail even if trump pardons him

    Then i got to wondering if this was all a clever plan by mueller
    One of the problems that mueller has is that his report goes to the attorney general
    And maybe he will supress the report in full or in part
    How can mueller legally leak the results of his investigation?
    Well, in order to break the manafort deal, mueller has to show cause
    (Which he will do later this week)
    And showing cause will happen publicly in court
    Along with similar detailed presentations for the sentancing of flynn and cohen
    that will likely entail a very complete detailing of muellers investigations
    So, my suspicion is that within a couple of weeks we will pretty much know all the details
    And so, fundamentally, i think there will be not much for the attorney general to supress, delay, or edit.

    All the above is no sure thing... just my hunch
     
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  2. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    No one is playing anyone really. It's much simpler than that. Mueller wants Manafort to testify to things that manafort does not know about Manafort refuses to do so ergo mueller revokes to the plea deal because Manafort won't lie for his tainted case.
     
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  3. struth

    struth Well-Known Member

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    What state crimes?
     
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  4. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Donor

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    "A Trump pardon, however, would have no reach on potential state charges against Manafort.
    If prosecutors went after him in New York, Virginia or California — where Manafort has already admitted to defrauding banks and evading taxes — the former campaign chairman could be looking at significant prison time that couldn't be erased by presidential pardon."
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ky-plea-bargain-brings-challenges-him-n940581

    Since Mueller has voided the plea deal I believe he can force the trial in the DC court to go forward, meaning additional jail time for Manafort. Under any scenario imaginable he's now likely to spend almost all his remaining years in prison. One explanation I read is Paul fears retribution from the Russians as much as anything. They've certainly proven not to be shy about killing people on foreign soil. Perhaps Paul is concerned for the lives of his family.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
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  5. struth

    struth Well-Known Member

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    1) NY and VA have state laws barring prosecution of state crimes related to crimes prosecuted by the feds. Don’t know about Cali. They have expanded the double jepardory clause.

    2) he can’t force a trial, manafort can always plea straight up. Moreover a judge has to first rule the current agreement has been broken by manafort.
     
  6. bois darc chunk

    bois darc chunk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't think Mueller saying Manafort lied not long after Trump turned in his written answers is a coincidence. I think you're right about knowing more details in the near future.
     
  7. Stevew

    Stevew Well-Known Member

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    Mueller's lawyers have already been dressed down by a judge for trying to force witnesses to "compose" their testimony. The word "compose" was used by the judge. Mueller is only protecting corrupt bureaucrats in a strategy of getting witnesses to lie in court, and they won't do it.

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  8. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member Donor

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    There is a case currently in front of the SCOTUS that may very well consider these things double jeopardy. Why should a state get a second bite after a failure by the feds for the same crime? Seems, well, UNCONSTITUTIONAL... But when has that ever stopped eager, greedy democrats/lawyers... These are valuable billable hours we're talking about here.
     
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  9. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    Tax evasion.
     
  10. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Considering Muellers' history of prosecution and previous tactics dealing with Mafiosa, it is likely this is but a small part of the longer term plan he has created and is putting into action. If he is smart (and he is) he will prevent his work from being brushed under the AG rug and spread information around multiple places to be released as needed...he is also doing this with people in TrumpCo. Todays Flynn release will also fall into the unfolding puzzle.
     
  11. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Donor

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  12. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In that case, mueller will have nothing to present to the judge about the specific lying that manafort did to provoke cancelling the deal?
     
  13. struth

    struth Well-Known Member

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  14. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yep, I think his thinking is that he'd rather live behind bars than wind up like the Skripals or so many of Putin's other targets, i.e. dead, critically injured or, at best, living in fear. Prison would be kind of a safe house to someone in that situation.
     
  15. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One wonders if prosecutors are unfamiliar with these laws
    I suspect they are... we will see

    These laws are intended to prevent double jeopardy
    Ie. prosecution for the same crime twice
    I believe this statute has been circumvented by making sure that state and fed prosecute for different crimes
    ....lets see
     
  16. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    AND given the prospect of jail time, manafort may wish to consider his accommodations: club fed vs state prison
     
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  17. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Does that mean a pardon would have him in a cell with Bubba?
     

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