Did the man really "rape" her if she didn't immediately leave him?

Discussion in 'Women's Rights' started by kazenatsu, Jun 3, 2022.

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Would you find the man guilty of rape?

  1. Yes

    2 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. No

    4 vote(s)
    66.7%
  1. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Then I need to see the testimony and see if it is consistent with what she signed in her complaint, and in her interview with the police, and hear the openning and closing. I want to know how much of a discrepancy there may have been between the rape, and when she filed her complaint. I want to hear what she did that day and the next, and the day after and who she may have told about this attack. I want to know if there are others especially children living at the house, whether this man has a violent temper, or a record. I want to know why she went to dinner than night and what her plans were for continuing to live with him, or whether she was waiting for him to get arrested and then to move out. i want an explanation that makes sense.

    I want to hear the accused if possible, or at the very least his attorney. I want him to address any possible motive for her to create a false police report. I want a TRIAL before I make any finding of guilt or innocence. That's what trials are for.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2022
  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It sounds to me like you are willing to find the man guilty of rape, so long as the woman's story seems to check out.
    In other words you believe there is a high chance a rape could have still occurred, even though she went to a party with him soon after.

    I guess the next question is HOW SOON does she have to report that rape?
    I am guessing you are willing to give her 2 weeks to "process" it, in her mind. But 1 month? 2 months? How about she claims the rape happened 6 months ago? Even though she continued to remain his girlfriend all that time.

    If I am the judge, I am going to give that man much less punishment depending on how much doubt there is. But that is just me. Many other people have difficulty visualizing things that way.

    I also think, in my opinion, that it should be presumed to be a less severe rape if he she continued to remain with him afterwards. So less punishment for the man.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
  3. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    I am 'willing' to find a man guilty of rape, if I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed one. Absolutely nothing you type about how she goes out the next night or whether she seems to be having a 'good' time etc alters that calculation. None of it moves the needle either direction. if there is a delay between the date of the incident and the date she goes to the cops, I don't have an issue to worry about, until his attorney makes it an issue as an argument to impeach her credibility with. And then I will listen to both sides as they attempt to spin this delay I imagine there may be some expert witness testimony on what are normal parameters for reporting a rape, and what can explain delays often one from each side. I will listen to that testimony as well. Its the prosecutor who has the burden, so its the prosecutor who has be more persuasive. The person I will NOT LISTEN to is kazenatsu, because kazenatsu has no greater expertise on rape than I do!
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But that is just sidestepping the original question in the opening post.

    Suppose you have the woman's testimony but you know she was at a party later enjoying herself with that man. Could that, by itself, be enough for you to convict the man, or would you absolutely need some some sort of additional evidence beyond that?
     
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Really?? So you believe it is not a factor at all??

    That she claims this man raped her, but then she goes to a party together with him and the two are seen laughing and talking together??

    If that's the case, then I think you have pretty much already answered my question.

    The only other possible question would be whether you would be willing to put the man in prison based only on the testimony of the woman. From how you are talking, I'm going to guess that the answer would be yes, assuming her testimony seems convincing enough for you and there is nothing else to cause any additional doubt in your mind.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I see. So it sounds like you have not quite made up your mind about the issue of delay in reporting, or believe it is so complicated and based on so many subtle factors, that you could not make up your mind about this until you have an actual specific situation.

    Sorry, I'm just trying to translate what you are saying into terms that I and everyone else can understand.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
  7. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    this isn't that hard. I want to hear the lawyers arguments based on the facts of the case and in that context. You are asking us to pretend we are jurors. Well jurors are not supposed to bring their own opinions into that courtroom. They are supposed to form their opinions based on what they hear in court. If there is a serious delay, The two attorneys will address it. One will claim it is suspect and use it to impeach credibility, the other will offer a 'reasonable explanation' and call it natural and expected. I would expect one of them to be more convincing than the other.

    i won't circumvent the lawyers, the testimony, the evidence, the trial.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In other words, you are unable to conceptualize any heuristic before the fact to address these sort of situations.

    A heuristic is a general rule that tells us what should be done in a certain sort of situation. If we cannot embrace any heuristic, then it becomes much more difficult to debate any actual reasoning or thought processes that could lead to injustice, since it would just become a completely new argument in each case, and there would no way for the public to realistically have a debate about so many thousands of separate cases.

    Sort of like that infamous quote from a Supreme Court judge "I'll know it when I see it."
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
  9. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Lol, you are the one avoiding the important issue.
    You are asking us to play jurors for you based on a ludicrously simplistic two sentence summary. The 'general rule' is already established. Jurors are not supposed to prejudge a case based on some 'heuristic'. That is exactly what they are not supposed to do, and promise not to do when they take their oath. They are supposed to judge it on the testimony, the evidence and the law as described by the judge. In criminal court, I am supposed to listen in court, and decide whether the defendent raped and apply that 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard to the quantum of proof expected to sustain my guilty verdict.

    In statement after statement throughout this thread, you have shown yourself to be lousy jury material. Those heuristics of yours are kryptonite to justice. That is an important issue.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
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  10. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    I can tell you do not know what rape is.
     
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  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can tell that some people in this forum seem to have a very different idea of what rape is than others.

    This is one more difference, I think, between Social Conservatives and Progressives.

    To a Conservative, actual rape is something very severe. She would not still be with him if what happened to her was actual rape.
    Conservatives would see that as a huge reason to have doubt.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
  12. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    It is a FACT that many of the abused stay with their abuser for a variety of reasons including fear of repercussions from the abuser.

    What's up with your fascination ( and at attempts at justification) with rape?
     
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Okay, so what do you think is going to happen when that man gets out of prison?
    This would be a rape within a domestic situation of two people who already were in a sexual relationship, so the man would not get too much prison time.

    This is the best argument yet from you, but even that argument doesn't make too much sense.

    How about she just files for a legal separation and applies for a restraining order?

    Or is your argument that maybe the man needs to be put in prison for a "cooling off" period and then hopefully he won't come after her?

    And what about in a lesbian relationship. What if one of them complains of domestic violence and then the other one just makes accusations back in retribution? Should we put them both in prison?

    How about a man who has hit a woman and now he's afraid she will call the police so he makes up accusations against her first to try to send her to prison?
    Do we just believe the first spouse that gets to police first?

    Maybe the woman goes to police and says the man threatened to hurt her if she left him, but when police talk to the man (if they even bother to talk to him) he says that no, it was she who threatened to kill him if he tried to leave.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2022
  14. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    UNCHERRY PICKED POST :

    FoxHastings:
    It is a FACT that many of the abused stay with their abuser for a variety of reasons including fear of repercussions from the abuser.

    What's up with your fascination ( and at attempts at justification) with rape?




    And what if two transgenders and one heterosexual all had sex with a woman's husband and they went out for pizza afterwards is that REALLY Rape ??

    What if a woman marries a man and then she beats him but he asked for it because he married her but they like to canoe together.


    What's up with your fascination ( and at attempts at justification) with rape?
     
  15. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So what? What exactly do you propose to do to protect the woman? I want specific details.

    Why isn't she afraid the man will come after him when he gets out of prison?

    How will putting the man in prison really protect her?

    She can leave, but you claim she is too afraid of him to leave.

    Are you saying the man should automatically be put in prison if the woman says he threatened her?
    How about we put them BOTH in prison if the man claims the woman threatened him?

    Your position might not be logical, FoxHastings.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2022
  16. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Rape has to do with consent. The moment a person says no or is unable to consent that is technically and legally rape. The actions before and after do not matter.

    People frequently stay with someone that has abused them — that doesn’t mean the abuse didn’t happen.

    It is terrifying to see Republicans make so many excuses for rape and now trying to push it so that women cannot even get an abortion if the rapist impregnates them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Um, no. You are sort of redefining it.

    Yes, if a woman never gave any sort of consent in any way, shape or form, to that man and he puts his sexual organ inside her, we both agree that is rape.

    However, there do exist situations that are a bit more complicated than that.

    I disagree. They very much do.

    Even if it is still a rape, it drastically changes the degree of that rape.

    It's disconcerting to see that the progressive left has been so successful at redefining the concept of what rape is.

    We all know there are real rapes. We shouldn't minimize those real rapes by lumping together other stuff together with them.
    At the very least, I think we need two different words.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2022
  18. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Your thread title doesn't match the question asked in the OP. Yes, it is rape if he forces it on her, regardless of how she acts the following day. Why would you think otherwise? But if the only evidence is her testimony and she admits she acted as if it didn't happen the following day, then I would not convict.

    That all by itself should never be enough to convict.

    Are you sure about that?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2022
  19. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't think that women should be believed in any condition. I think that those kind of cases are too complicated to be judged, and because it's a word against a world, the presumption of innocence should apply.

    Like in many case of abuses, the victim doesn't always realize that she was abused, at least, the victim don't put the words on it. So yes, she could be raped and act "normal" the day of that rape or the day thereafter.
     
  20. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Donor

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    Is it possible that woman is lying? Yes.
    Is it possible that woman is telling the truth? Yes.

    I heard some story were woman told about rape, but for different mental reasons stayed some time with a rapist boyfriend.
     
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  21. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    A mere accusation should never be enough to convict anyone of anything.
     
  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But especially if she is seen going out to a nightclub with the man who allegedly "raped" her, three days later.

    People in older times would have never considered that to be a "rape", even if the man did have sex with her on one occasion when she said no.


    A woman shouldn't be able to claim she was raped and then continue on with the romantic/sexual relationship.
    That is NOT the same level of rape/violation that normal rape is. In that case, this is almost more of a domestic dispute, could even fall into the category of domestic violence, although "violence" may not have actually been used.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2022

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