Discussing the Messiah from an Historical Perspective

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Margot2, Mar 30, 2015.

  1. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    People who say dumb things like, "Messiah was a superhuman being, is a Christian innovation" illustrate the poor reading comprehension that has made Judaism and Christianity remain so misdirected, and also failed to stop Mohammed in 616AD, when he first revealed his Talmud.

    Jesus explained specifically and in great detail to Philip, in particular (Matt 14:6-13), that Christ was the Truth, i,e.; the ideal and the concept of what is real in the word.

    Since then, these wizards who try to say things very complex and stupid have made religion a mockery of what it was for a 1000 years during the Age of Monasticism.
    Jesus clearly reinforced that Truth is the messiah when he said again, "The Truth will set you free."
    Certainly Christ sets us free, as he is synonymous with the logos, one word, Truth.
    And an idiot can realize that the father of Truth is Reality, the very thing Truth images.
     
  2. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Humans typically don't walk on water, feed 5,000 with a couple of loaves and fishes or return from the dead now do they?
     
  3. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    No.
    Typically the Jews demanded fee for a seat in the Temple and the synagogues, but Jesus invented the new idea of passing around a tray of food t the crowd in attendance, and he watched as others donated more that they themselves had to share.
    When the trays returned, a new kind of Church had been created, one which earned tithes paid as people might so to do.

    Everyone ate who so desired, including Jesus and his own men.
    There was much left over for Judas to put in his purse, too.
     
  4. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    So????????
     
  5. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    You're free to give up. Any time :cool:
     
  6. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    So...?
    YOU asked how Jesus could feed 5000 people and I told you that he placed some loaves on in a basket and sent them into the crowd.
    But others added to the basket and all are, wit much left over for the apostles themselves.
     
  7. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    I disagree with this.
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    what point did she miss, please?

    - - - Updated - - -

    and further, since this is her thread, her point was made in the OP. the better question is what's your point?
     
  9. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    I waded through those posts and the links - what a weak and incorrect argument.

    You basically just say the usual muslim claim that Jesus was not the Messiah and that Christians invented the claim after Jesus was dead. No proof, not even a good argument.

    And you make a big error in claiming Simon bar Kochba was considered a messianic figure, he was not. He was a tyrant who managed to rebel against the Romans (and the Jews) and create his own little fiefdom for a couple of years until the Romans wiped it off the face of the earth.

    Your link http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah00.html also makes a huge error in listing John the Baptist as a "claimant" to being the Messiah - he did not make any such claim and repudiated those that made it for him and in fact, when following the explanation for "John the Baptist" in your link it says exactly that - contradicting its own claim.

    This was all a waste of time.
     
  10. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    I made *my* point clear. Maybe you should read my response to the OP.
     
  11. NightSwimmer

    NightSwimmer New Member

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    When you attempt to explain supernatural Biblical miracles with natural science, you have already given up.
     
  12. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Actually there were some 14 or more claimants.. and some of their stories are quite interesting.
     
  13. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    I haven't done this, nor would I ever attempt to.
     
  14. NightSwimmer

    NightSwimmer New Member

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    Did you forget to take your Ginkgo Biloba this morning? ;)
     
  15. Karma Mechanic

    Karma Mechanic Well-Known Member

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    Many people claimed to be the messiah and up to 5 in the life time of Jesus.
    Yes who the messiah would be varied greatly throughout history including in the first century.
    While Jews believed the messiah would be a human there was some divine intervention that was expected.
    Bar Kochba was indeed someone who was seen as a messianic figure right up until he wasn't.
    The most recent Jewish messiah candidate was The Rebbe of the Lubavitcher movement Schneerson who died in 1993 was and in some circles still is considered the messiah. However there is much criticism of this as it is not a Jewish concept to worship a dead messiah. In fact the majority of Jews who gave up on Jesus in the 1st century and on other messiah figures throughout history was for this reason. It has been more than 20 years since the Rebbe's death. the Lubavitch community still thrives, though split by the notion of what Schneerson's death means. In the end it is unimportant.

    Now the OP's website is full of errors but the fact is that it could be an interesting discussion if we were free of theology.
     
  16. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    Does your church take up a collection and use baskets that are passed around

    When do you think that idea began?
     
  17. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

    20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
    21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
     
  18. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    I don't know what to do with this response. You're free to try to prove me wrong, but I have never tried to prove the supernatural scientifically. Ever. The supernatural _cannot_ be explained scientifically. If you consider longer days to be supernatural, then I've got a surprise for ya.
     
  19. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    How can that be so when Jesus said, "The Truth will set you free?"

    Truth is what Christ said he represented for us, and the Truth can be read in the bible if one tries to see it there.
     
  20. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    You are a good witness to what is called faith healings.

    Your church still hypnotizes people as the drop down to the floor and rise back up saying they have been healed.
    Right??

    Jesus did the same thing in 32AD, bur we did not discover this mysterious art ourselves until 1889, when Dr Mesmer found he, himself, could mesmerize people, too.
     
  21. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    I don't attend a church. I don't plan on attending on in the near or distant future.

    In regards to the two fish and five loaves of bread... No one added to any basket. Jesus literally did something supernatural. He even had food left over.


    Your problem is that you assume I'm like everyone else. Unlike all those other people you spoke to, I actually know my stuff. This may surprise you.

    1) Hypnotizing people, or faith healing found in Pentecostal churches, are not biblical. They are "carnal", and they are certainly not of God. God will never make you lose control of your body if he's healing you. When you see stuff like that, you should question it!

    2) Jesus did not hypnotize people when he healed them. Neither did people fall to the ground when he placed his hands on them. No one lost control of their bodies after he's touched them. There is no secret art, and if this is what you're being told, then you're being lied to.
     
  22. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    True, but the muslims have a convenient excuse in that they believe the New Testament is not the word of Jesus but the creation of people who sought to gain personal power by using Jesus.
     
  23. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    If you are going to talk about Muslims at least get the basics right.. They don't believe in original sin or blood sacrifice... they say God does not eat nor is he fed.
     
  24. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Totally irrelevant to my post.

    Muslims reject the New Testament because they believe it does not represent Jesus teachings but was the work of men who - after Jesus left - created it in order to take over the movement and advance their own agenda.
     
  25. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Not exactly.. they reject that the purest of the prophets.. a man without sin.. could die such a cruel and humiliating death... With that in mind and their rejection of blood sacrifice and original sin they think God fooled the Roman soldiers who came to take Jesus at Gethsemane and that they took Judas instead. That appeals to their sense of justice.
     

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