Discussion regarding abortion in cases of birth defects

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Junkieturtle, May 3, 2012.

  1. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The purpose of this thread is to discuss abortion in cases where prenatal testing has shown one or more birth defects. This thread is not about whether abortion in general should be legal or illegal, or abortion in any other circumstances than the confirmed presence of birth defects. There are other threads for general abortion discussion. Cases where the handicap is caused by something post-birth would not apply to this thread, nor am I directly or indirectly suggesting the idea that post-birth defects be handled in a similar manner. I am also not proposing mandatory abortion in these cases, so please, lets keep the discussion free from baseless generalizations and assumptions.

    My personal stance is that abortion should be strongly recommended in cases of confirmed birth defects, especially seriously debilitating physical or mental ones. I drop my kids off at school every morning. Their elementary school has a special education department for mentally handicapped and other wise special education needs children. I see these kids and I can't help but wonder what their quality of life is. Some of the ones with more mild complications probably don't have that hard of time, but I see some of the kids with serious physical defects(admittedly, the mentally handicapped ones are harder for me to identify since I'm not in the classroom with them) and I just feel it's selfish to have allowed them to be born. I've read the inspirational stories of families with disabled children, and they are heartwarming, but nobody ever talks about the kids and what they might be thinking, likely because they don't actually know.

    In those cases, I truly feel your doctor ought to strongly recommend terminating the pregnancy, not out of convenience for the parents but mercy for the child.
     
  2. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    interesting topic. I see the mentally disabled being helped by theri elderly parents and at times wonder what happens when the parents pass away.

    Imagine what it must be like as a parent to never be able to take a break from raising a child. If you subscribe to religion then you view all as being God's children.

    We buried my sister who was severly disabled at the young age of 3. My parents until their dying breaths always called her their little angel.

    this topic is an extension of the abortion question which is nothing more than which lives are worthy of continuing. I do not view myself as being the one who can pass judgment on which life needs to be discarded and which is worth continuing.
     
    Makedde and (deleted member) like this.
  3. TheHat

    TheHat New Member

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    I look at this as a gateway to further the culture of death, which is nothing short of pure eugenics.

    Doctors are wrong all the time, test or no test. Hell there was just a story about a woman carrying twins and she wanted to abort the one the doctor said had issues. Fancy the doctor, killed the other baby and the woman wound up with no kids at all.

    Why does man think compassion comes in the form of killing the innocent?

    Again, why not let life take its natural course? Because it might provide someone a bump in the road? Life is not perfect. Life is what you make of it. How can raising a retarded kid be considered selfish? That makes absolutely no sense to me.
     
  4. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because you're not taking into consideration what life is like for that child, and only that you don't want to have the guilt of having an abortion and not "choosing life". I don't know, honestly, which is why I made this thread. I have no experience being around or raising a special needs child, so I'm not going to pretend I understand what it's like, but I just can't help but wonder what the quality of life is for a severely disabled child in situations where the mother knew that it was going to be born that way.
     
  5. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    but who are we to judge "quality of life"?

    I can't slam dunk a basketball, paint a decent portrait or run a 4 minute mile. is my quality of life lacking because of it?
     
  6. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know, only you could answer that question.

    But you make a good point, at least in regards to the thread topic. I honestly can't say what the quality of life is like for disabled children, and the adults that some will eventually become. I do know that some disabled people have issues with basic functions of life like breathing, moving, communicating, or even controlling their own body at all. I can't imagine that's an existence that could be said to have much quality, if any.

    Let me ask you this. Do you think there's a difference between a mother who has an abortion for personal reasons(whatever those may be) as opposed to a woman who has an abortion when birth defects have been confirmed by a doctor?
     
  7. Sean Michael

    Sean Michael New Member

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    Abortion to me is always wrong. How do we decide on someones quality of life?, do you have a better quality to life than me?. If we do not know how they feel or what they are thinking then why assume they are unhappy. What makes us to be the judge and jury over who has the right to life and who has not?. Life has suffering that is part and parcel of life. The only reason a parent would want to abort their seriously malformed child is for their own benefit. I am not saying it is easy but the right choice is always to choose life. The parents of a child that is seriously disformed are not being selfish in raising that child if anything they are self giving. They have a heavy cross to carry, so to me they should be applauded for trying to give their child the care it needs, instead of taking what I believe to be in fact the selfish option of getting rid of their own baby.
     
  8. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    the below are true stories


    my sister was told she'd be fine, the cancer took her 4 months later.

    A very good friend of mine was told about 10 years ago to get his affairs in order

    my wife and I just went out to dinner with him and his wife last weekend

    the one thing I've learned about Drs, they aren't God.
     
  9. Makedde

    Makedde New Member Past Donor

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    But you can form an opinion, you can type on this website, you can hold a conversation, you can cook, dress yourself, wipe your own arse, you can do your own shopping, you can walk, and see, and hear. You are totally independant and do not rely on another adult to do everything for you.

    Now imagine not being able to do ANY of those things. Think about what your life would be like if you had to have someone else put you to bed, bathe you, dress you, and wipe your bum for you? I don't know about you, but I would wish I was dead, and if I knew I would have a child like that, I would not hesitate to have an abortion.

    You really need to stop thinking about yourself and consider what your childs life would be like. If you wouldn't want to live like a severely disabled person, how can you assume a child would want to?
     
  10. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    Severely retarded babies should be aborted. I would not have wanted to born if I had Down's syndrome, or perhaps I would just have been blissfully ignorant and too stupid to have an opinion on the matter. Honesty, down syndrome babies have the intelligence level of a monkey. Why should they recieve the same type of special treatment owed to sentient life forms?
     
  11. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree, doctors are not always going to be right, especially when it comes to diseases that we aren't fully knowledgeable of. I should probably do some homework on the accuracy of prenatal testing for birth defects.

    Another potential situation just occurred to me.

    What if testing shows a fetus has a genetic disorder, like Tay-Sachs disease, which usually presents 6 months after birth and results in death a few years later, and is a generally debilitating disease up until that point. After a quick internet search, it seems the prenatal testing for this is quite accurate, in situations where the parents did not realize they may be carriers before proceeding with pregnancy.
     
  12. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    interesting

    and children born blind or deaf know no other way. Who are we to say their life is less worthy than ours. It's like the abortion issue in itself. Who are we to say that this life or that must be terminated?
     
  13. Cady

    Cady New Member Past Donor

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    That's why we have abortion, to terminate a pregnancy before the life begins.

    http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/birth?region=us&q=birth
     
  14. Makedde

    Makedde New Member Past Donor

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    If my child was blind or deaf I would never abort them. They are not mentally disabled, are they? But if the child was going to have severe Cerebral Palsy, or Downs Syndrome, that IS an intellectual disability, and I would abort.
     
  15. TheHat

    TheHat New Member

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    How arrogant is that?

    Who are you to determine someone else's quality of life FOR THEM? What happened to "let kids be themselves"?...lol.

    I don't have a special needs kid either. But if I did end up having one, I wouldn't kill him/her. I would take care of that child as I would any of my other 7.

    Just b/c your life isn't perfect, doesn't mean you get a mulligan on it. I would consider it a blessing to have such a child, that God chose my wife, my kids, and I to care for such a person. What an example for my other children, to grow up knowing a side of life most people cant possibly fathom.

    Life is what you make of it. If all your considered about is yourself, then you cant see the genuine humility or goodness of such a situation.

    It goes with the saying: "Fat people are people to". Well guess what? "Retarded people are people to". Who are you or I to say they should be killed because someone else thinks their life isn't good for them. Let the person your wanting to kill, make up their own mind on that, afterall, it's their life, not yours.
     
  16. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They don't get to make up their own mind. Assisted suicide is not legal, and even if it were, it probably wouldn't be legal for mentally challenged people on the basis that they are not competent enough to make that decision.

    And all your examples ARE selfish. You're talking about how great it would be for you, and your wife, and your kids. I didn't see any mention of how great it would be for the child growing up with a debilitating birth defect.
     
  17. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

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    Here it is illegal to abort a child with a fatal birth defect.

    Even if it certain that the child will die as soon as it is born, for example when it has no brain, the woman must carry to full term. The right to life of the unborn had many unintended consequences.

    I do not agree that it should be recommended, if a woman wishes to abort than I understand it but I support the right to do so for the same reason I support legal access to abortion, because a woman should have the right to make her own medical decisions about her body.
     
  18. Makedde

    Makedde New Member Past Donor

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    How are we to determine someone's quality of life for them? Well gee, would you like to sit in a chair 24 hours a day and have your wife dress you, bathe you, brush your hair, take you to the toilet, put you to bed, get you out of bed and into your wheelchair, provide you with medical treatment, all while taking care of 7 kids?

    If the answer is yes, IMO that is (*)(*)(*)(*)ing selfish and I would rather die than expect my family to do all that for me rather than allow them to live their own lives. Just imagine how it is for a child. They'd be trapped in a body that doesn't function, and you would assume they want to be alive just because you would be 'blessed' to care for such a child? That God somehow blessed you with a special needs child? Sorry, a special needs child is not a blessing, to many, its a curse.
     
  19. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    This is all about a class of people who will find any excuse under the sun to kill children. The particular excuse here is imperfect children and imagining that the self sacrifice it would take to parent a child with mental or physical disabilities is to hard its out of their comfort zone. They do not value life. For them the sacrifice would be a waste. This centers around …."life"……and who they think should live and die. But the fact is…they are all pro-aborts…so this issue…is ridiculous because their position says…killing the life in the womb is ok acceptable….and more people should do it…in this case…kill all handicapped and mentally handicapped children. That is playing God….but they do it for all other abortion excuses as well…this is no different…no surprise. Of course they would be pro-death…I mean who on earth would want to take care of an imperfect child. Sanger had the same views….and Hitler did too.
     
  20. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    Makedde said,

    You do that just by being a pro-abort. You are saying its ok to kill a living human being. And of course you could never take care of someone you just described…that is a no brainer. You would not have what it takes that is for sure. God help a member of your family who might one day need assistance that you find too repulsive to give. Boy we live in a narcissistic world and your view is just that. Its me me me me me…your just one definition.


    The key to your statement here is……"I would rather die"…….YOU ARE MAKING THE DETERMINATION FOR YOURSELF, LIKE IT IS PERSONAL AND YET YOU ALSO ARE DOING IT BY BEING PRO-ABORTION…AS YOUR POSITION CALLS FOR THE KILLING OF UNBORNS WHO DON'T GET THAT CHOICE.

    Your worldview is sad on every level. I would assume you would also think people already born…who are challenged are not worth the trouble. hey in your world there would be no handicap ramps…anything handicap. Its a characteristic that repulses you.
     

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