Dismal Results From Vouchers Surprise Researchers as DeVos Era Begins

Discussion in 'Education' started by bobnelsonfr, Feb 24, 2017.

  1. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    There are no merits to the OP as it is based upon a completely discredited source.

    What is interesting is that certain people believe that all ideas have equal value and deserve equal consideration. According to that philosophy, humanity would still be making tools out of rock and living in caves because we would waste our time constantly re-evaluating old discredited ideas.

    And you do not even follow your own self-described policy. If you did, you would not be calling Trump a liar and assuming an "esteemed scientist" is telling the truth. Such labels betray your personal bias.
     
  2. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    I am trying to explain to you how evidence and logic work. I will have to boil it down further. The source NEVER determines the truth of a statement. Never. That is not how logical arguments or evidence work. Appeal to authority, or lack thereof, is logical fallacy and has no place in sound reasoning or logical debate.

    Trump's lies are well documented, but that does not mean everything he says can be assumed to be false. That would be making the same mistake you are on this thread.

    You haven't talked about ideas at all. You refused to even address it because you distrust the source. So what is wrong with the studies about vouchers?
     
  3. bobnelsonfr

    bobnelsonfr Member

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    What do you mean by "most"? What percentage? Where does your number come from? What is your source?

    Are you proposing that only non-profit associations be allowed to run schools? Are you proposing that for-profit schools not be allowed?

    What, exactly, are you trying to say?
     
  4. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    See page 3 in the following PDF. (Page 3 meaning page 3 in the document, as numbered, not third page in pdf)
    Roughly speaking, 30% of private schools are Catholic schools (meaning they are not corporate owned), 49% are Other Religious Schools (again, not corporate owned), the other 21% are nonsectarian private school. Hence, at most 21% of private schools could be for-profit businesses. What I'm trying to debunk is the idea that you stated in post #2 that vouchers would divert government money into private for-profit corporations.

    I'm for experimenting with directed vouchers (for people close to the poverty line living in bad school districts), but am against general vouchers (for all students). I've seen the insides of both public and private schools. For the most part, if the public schools had the same population as the private schools, the public schools would do a much better job of education. For the most part, the public schools have better and more qualified teachers and principals. Private schools get the people who can't get jobs at public schools, or are true believers in their religious schools.

    https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/2002013.pdf
     
  5. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Total BS.

    If Einstein and obama each gave a lecture on the fine points of relativity, would you treat each lecture equally, spend equal amounts of your time on each? If the 2 lectures conflict, who would you assume to be correct? Or would you attend the world recognized experts lecture and totally ignore the completely nontechnical persons lecture?

    In your approach, you have to assume that both Einstein and obama will not only be wrong but lie, and you therefore have to study every comment to determine its veracity. You cannot assume that anyone will be honest.

    For your approach to work, you also have to assume that all people can have equal understanding of the subject. That's false. No person can be an expert on every subject, no person can vet every concept in every subject. You must rely on the authority of experts.

    Look at school vouchers. There are research studies that show they work, they don't work, and studies that are inconclusive. And its obviously a subject tainted by politics, so there will be "research" and articles created with political motives. Are you going to take the time to review the studies, learn the material, become an expert on the subject, and then come to an actual experts conclusion? No, you don't have the time, and probably not the motivation, to devote many months (possibly years) to the subject and the data.

    So you resort to the authority of the sources. Usually in a short amount of time you can determine the quality of the source. Clearly untrustworthy sources are discarded for obvious reasons.

    Unless its your personal field of expertise, you rely on the authority of the source all the time. To claim otherwise is naïve.
     
  6. bobnelsonfr

    bobnelsonfr Member

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    Very interesting numbers.

    You are right to recall that most "private" schools are in fact religious schools, of many, many different varieties. The question of public financing of religious education is a very old one, and fits with "education for profit" in a very particular way... ⊙﹏⊙ I'm sure the religious schools see their own kind of "profit", but it is indeed a different one than capitalist profit. I am viscerally opposed to public money for religious schools, but that is a different debate than public money for for-profit schools.

    It is interesting to note that the students-per-teacher averages are worst for public schools, slightly better for Catholic schools, better yet for "other religious" schools... and by far the best for non-affiliated. I'd love to see these numbers correlated to public money!

    Personally, I would like to see all private schools closed. If the power-wealth-elite had no choice but to send their kids to public schools, they would not be in such a hurry to gut them.
     
  7. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I can fix this give each parent a voucher for 60% what they pay per child now for education in an average state say using this figure roughly modified for todays dollars.

    http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/06/21/155515613/how-much-does-the-government-spend-to-send-a-kid-to-school

    So lets say around $6250 a year per child (a disabled child with sufficient issues would get the full amount noted for added expenses in the link) on three law changes. One the states may take the voucher for educating a child and are not required to provide extensive support services no school lunches without being paid, no social workers or nurses unless to meet the needs of a disabled child which must meet a minimum standard of education. The second the voucher cannot go to religious instruction unless of a secular nature. The last the parents or guardians will be required to see each child is given an "appropriate education" this to be defined by the courts as the new system kicks in or face child neglect charges with fines or prisons, being in a public or state authorized school if private will meet this requirement as would enrollment in on-line approved homeschool programs. Then let the free market work and allow many kinds of educational options flourish this could be tiny parent funded with the vouchers one room schools, educational co-ops, private schools, learning centers with homeschooling using these as a resource and so forth.
     
  8. bobnelsonfr

    bobnelsonfr Member

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    What would this accomplish?
     
  9. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    I already acknowledged that we use authority as a shortcut for practical purposes. But it is, strictly speaking, NOT the way you determine the veracity of something. So to join a thread and attack the source as if that proves your point, that is incorrect and you have proven nothing. Experts have been wrong while nonexperts were correct before. The authorities have been wrong while others knew, take Michael Moore on Trump's election vs polsters, for example. This is not an einstein vs obama on physics question anyway.

    But don't let me interrupt you actually starting to talk about the arguments. You say the studies are mixed and partisan. What is it about the methodologies of the ones that show vouchers don't work that invalidates their conclusions? Or whatever other actual reasons you have to oppose them besides your political affiliation. I actually do have training in evaluating studies, but have not read these studies yet.
     
  10. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    As already stated, the New York Times has been proven to be untrustworthy, proven to slant their articles to support "progressives" and to denigrate non-"progressives", proven to have colluded with the Hilary campaign and worked with the DNC.

    They are so tarnished that everything they publish is stained and not worth review.

    The basis of this OP is a NYT article, and in proven NYT fashion I am sure the NYT "research" cited is biased - otherwise it would not ne in the NYT. No need to read the "research".

    Now, if you or the OP want to present data from an objective source - and if vouchers do not work then you should be able to find objective work that supports that claim - then you might get attention.
     
  11. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Muslim Schools seem to like them

    ""Vouchers can be used for Muslim Schools? OOPS!""

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/7/6/1106793/--Vouchers-can-be-used-for-Muslim-Schools-OOPS

    "WATSON — Rep. Valarie Hodges, R-Watson, says she had no idea that Gov. Bobby Jindal’s overhaul of the state’s educational system might mean taxpayer support of Muslim schools …

    'I liked the idea of giving parents the option of sending their children to a public school or a Christian school,' Hodges said.

    Hodges mistakenly assumed that 'religious' meant 'Christian.'

    HB976, now signed into law as Act 2, proposed, among other things, a voucher program allowing state educational funds to be used to send students to schools run by religious groups …

    'Unfortunately it will not be limited to the Founders’ religion,' Hodges said. 'We need to insure that it does not open the door to fund radical Islam schools. There are a thousand Muslim schools that have sprung up recently. I do not support using public funds for teaching Islam anywhere here in Louisiana.'""

    .
     

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