Do you support the right of secession?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by HereWeGoAgain, May 11, 2019.

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Do you support giving each State the right to secede from the US?

  1. I support the right of secession from the US

    24 vote(s)
    51.1%
  2. I oppose the right of secession but don't want a war

    14 vote(s)
    29.8%
  3. I prefer a civil war over breaking up the US

    9 vote(s)
    19.1%
  1. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Now here's where we can all agree.
    One-way bus tickets to California for druggies and alcoholics.
     
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  2. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Secession as an idea is, of course, compromised by the example of the one time it was tried.

    But it keeps coming up, although few people take it seriously.

    I spent the summer in Northern California a few years ago and was surprised to learn about this movement. I think the 'state of Jefferson' people are old hippies (although I might be mistaken), whereas most seccessionists are like the Alaska Independence Party, on the Right (although the Libertarian Right, not the super-patriot Right). Having said that, I checked out Wiki on the subject, and was astonished to find out how widespread this idea is.

    Here's a relevant excerpt:
    The exception to the mainly-Rightists-support-seccession is among ethnic minorities: check out the now-dead Aztlan movement, and the Republic of New Africa.

    Of course, as you say, the Left will never go along with a "States' rights" approach ... they are the New Puritans, and want to crush evil wherever it is.

    And the real barrier to seccession is simply the world posture of the USA right now: if the US were just a country like Canada, only bigger ... there would not be so much of a problem. But if the US comes apart ... who gets the 7th Fleet? Who inherits the 82nd Airborne?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
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  3. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    The Pledge of Allegiance affirms no loyalty to either, in case you didn't know.
    Impossible, as there were no sovereign states in 1864; or, for that matter, in 1789; or, for that matter, in 1782.
     
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  4. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Pledge of Allegiance was a nationalist socialist thing. Back in the day America's nationalist socialist were progressives. Famous American progressive...President Theodore Roosevelt, President Woodward Wilson, Francis J. Bellamy.


    [​IMG]
    Children salute the American flag in 1915. (Library of Congress/Wikimedia Commons)


    Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...ok-like-a-nazi-180960100/#QLGBplSojfdaKUiH.99
     
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  5. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    not an affirmation of loyalty to the US government; and I don't give a damn if Hitler wrote it, as there's nothing wrong with it.
     
  6. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hitler stole the Bellamy salute from America.
     
  7. Dazed and Confused

    Dazed and Confused Newly Registered

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    Most people have no historical knowledge, so reading many of the comments is a waste of time. People think they have a right to an opinion despite the fact they have little knowledge and poor critical thinking skills. It is what has destroyed any possibility of having a participatory republic. Jefferson, not one of my favorites, said you couldn't sustain a republic with uninformed citizens.

    Before anyone begins to discuss the topic, it is vitally important to note that the South is a separate nation culturally, and always has been. The midwest is currently going through a devolution because of the death of manufacturing, so many people, (as they always do in times of socio-economic turmoil), turn to simplistic religious views and right-wing politics. I think that will eventually correct itself because they have a more polyglot population than the South and major cities with informed citizens who will out-breed the rural disgruntled. Rural economies are dying everywhere for small and medium sized villages and towns, so as people concentrate more in cities, their politics and culture changes. Remember, the stupidity, greed and evil you see now in politics is a temporary phenomenon because the people who support such things are slowly being out-populated by the more reasonable ones.

    In relation to this particular issue--secession: The secession of the southern states which led to the Civil War was caused by a minority of people who were oligarchs--those few who controlled local economies and therefore communication and politics, (like the oligarchs who control the political landscape today.) They controlled the legislatures with enough margins at times to sustain slavery. Both Virginia and North Carolina had actually voted shortly before their secession votes to stay in the Union. That provides evidence the secession movement was not overwhelmingly popular. The majority of humans in those states did not want secession because they were never asked and wouldn't know what it would entail and how it would affect their lives in any case. Tens if not hundreds of thousands lived in rural isolation, not in major cities were news was available continually and transport and communication facile. Most southerners knew no economics, national nor world geography nor history anyway, (because education was so very poor), so their views would have been irrelevant to a cogent debate. No rural poor nor the small struggling middle class people wanted extreme change, since would threaten the status quo. You could get them whipped up with jingoistic propaganda like the oligarchs do now though, and that is why they were motivated to join the military and wage war, (led by pro-slavery oligarchs as the officers); thus dooming their region to a decade of devastation and socio-economic disruption. Don't forget also that blacks weren't counted when discussing how many people wanted to leave the Union. Minorities of right wing ideologues use emotional arguments to inflame the uninformed masses, (most of the white voters in the ante-bellum South.) The oligarchs still play the same game today. During secession, the oligarchs wanted to maintain slavery among other financial considerations in order to continue making large profits from export of cotton to England and to the Northern textile manufacturers, and to a lesser extent tobacco and some foods which could survive lack of refrigeration. Of course no one who knew anything about economics in those days would have predicted success because they had a primitive transport system, only one foundry, and no manufacturing centers of any note. It was not like the images in "Gone With The Wind." It was a poor rural ignorant isolated society for most people. Most whites scratched out a living on smallish farms and few had enough money for slaves. It took a long time to travel to a local town of any size. Lots of learning was by word of mouth and therefore fallible and uncertain. An agricultural slave-based society with undeveloped educational, transport, communications and manufacturing could never hope to win a war with an economically and politically developed enemy. Even their manpower availability was relatively low. They only did well because of poor leadership which caused faulty or hesitant strategic and tactical decisions by the Union forces. The Union armies of course crushed the smaller secessionist ones once the leadership, logistics and transport problems could be resolved despite political interference. They couldn't win in any long conflict because they lacked the resources. War demands money, money and more money, and the North had, and still has, that in abundance.

    All that said, I am sick and tired of the resurgence of secessionist propaganda so I hope they secede again. I say have a great time trying to go it alone and please leave the rest of us alone to have a progressive government which cares about everyone. One can neither halt nor reverse socio-economic trends which compel us all, but let them try since they seem to feel so strongly about it. Sometimes when viewing the deplorables chanting stupid slogans fed to them by demagogues you can actually see the hate and frustration steaming off their bodies. It really doesn't ultimately matter anyway because over-population, climate change, depletion of resources and concentration of wealth will eventually destroy any remaining good in our civilization.
     
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  8. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Then should the former states of the Confederacy seek reparations for the total destruction Lincoln wage against them for something they had a right to do?
     
  9. Texan

    Texan Well-Known Member

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    We’d never get it, but I don’t think the country has the stomach for CW2. I wouldn’t want to waste lives keeping California and I’m sure Californians feel the same way about Texas.
     
  10. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ahhh it's not Southern states that are talking secession, try California.
     
  11. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    LOL! Yeah right. The red states wouldn't have anyone living there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
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  12. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Texas has talked about seceding for a long time. Even their Governor supported it at one time - I think it was Perry.

    And it is clear that trumpers hate everyone else. So why would we want to have you in our country?

    We didn't declare war on you. It was the other way around. Now live with the consequences. And that IS what trump is all about. He threw gasoline on the existing flame of a culture war. And since then, trumpers have proven to me America died the day trump was elected. We don't want you in our country.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
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  13. DavidMK

    DavidMK Well-Known Member

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    The most potent secessionist movements are in Vermont and Hawaii. lol
     
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  14. Robert Urbanek

    Robert Urbanek Active Member

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    Czechoslovakia managed to split apart without violence or too much economic trauma. So it can be done. The only groups I know of that say you can't leave after you join are murderous street gangs.
     
  15. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    California's the biggest. If they are allowed to secede do the former states of the Confederacy get to sue for reparations? And will they be called traitors are Southern's are routinely on this board and elsewhere?
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  16. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    The Confederacy split would have been too had Lincoln not invaded them to force them back into the Union.......................with their slavery intact.
     
  17. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well yeah when Lincoln invaded and blockaded he declared war. We wanted out Lincoln wouldn't let us leave and ended up burning down most of the Confederacy the cities the towns, the farms, the factories the homes the businesses. The Southerns then are called traitors. Would the citizens of California be called traitors if they seceded? If allowed do the former states of the Confederacy get to seek reparations for an unlawful war against them?
     
  18. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can't speak for the Lefties here, but conservatives reading this should note, with pleasure, that there are already people on the Left who hate us - all of us - and would be glad of a separation.

    To some extent, of course, this is just class-based arrogance of the upper layers of society for those whom they consider their social inferiors: people with grease under their fingernails, who wear overalls at work, who don't have a college degree, who drive pickup trucks with American flag decals on the bumpers, who go to church on Sundays, who stand up when the national anthem is played. Rubes, hicks, bumpkins.

    This needs to be encouraged. Their visceral contempt needs to be given conscious dimensions: all of the complexities of a peaceful separation must be thought about in advance. It's important that there be a strong voice on the Left for this.

    There will be a temptation on the Right to engage in some spiteful fantasies about what Leftworld would be like with us gone, the necessity for very strict border control on our part after a few years of South-Africa-in-California. That should NOT be engaged in. Our attitude should be one of encouragement: how lovely their new socialist-vegetarian-trans-friendly republic will be. San Francisco writ large.

    In short, an amicable divorce, with all the usual cliches -- we can still be friends; it's not your fault, it's mine, etc. Think of it as a kind of tactical fire discipline.
     
  19. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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  20. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wholesale racist genocide?
    As for immigration policy, I know zero about it, but surely at that time all countries had more or less the same immigration policy -- probably America's was more liberal than the rest. But you may know something here that I don't.
     
  21. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    If the Democrats ever manage to steal the electoral college. I would expect America to disintegrate quickly and would fully support the right of each state or portions of each state to break off from America.
    Or more accurately break off of what was once America.
     
  22. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Hitler was quite adamant that most nations then had a very bad Immigration policy. In Mein Kampf, he had high praise for only one's recent reworking of their immigration laws, the USA.

    By this time in our history we were beginning to eschew the idea of semi-slavery and were toying with extermination as the solution to our "race problem" It was only after we saw the Nazi example with the Jews that we pulled back from that abyss.
     
  23. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They won't have to steal it. Finally, it will reflect demography. And demography is on their side.
    I am old enough, and have been paying attention enough, to see the profound changes in what was once 'America'. Some of them definitely for the better -- the ones which were just the logical culmination of the founding values of this country. Some of them profoundly for the worse.

    There are two kinds of 'changes for the worse'. Using a medical analogy, you can lose an arm. But it stops there. You are handicapped for the rest of your life, but you can still function, just at a somewhat diminished level. But then there is something like untreated leprosy. That's what we have in the US now. If you can stop it by amputation, do so.

    At the moment, the idea of separation sounds nuts. And at the moment it would be extremely difficult to do. Who gets the military? Who takes over the national debt?

    But it will make more and more sense, as we withdraw from trying to sort out the evils of the world, and begin to concentrate on taking care of ourselves. And despite all the problems, we can separate. (A good book to read about the problems of separating is Freedom at Midnight, about the division of British India into Pakistan and India. They were dividing dictionaries down the middle!)

    The more we have popularized this idea, and the more we have thought about its modalities, the better and less painful it will be.

    In particular we must do our best to convince our friends on the Left -- who despise us anyway as a bunch of uneducated green-toothed ignorant racists -- that they will be able to construct their earthly paradise much more quickly without the likes of us around. We will have to make concessions to them -- for instance, we could agree to take over the tedious and sometimes dangerous job of defending the two new nations, or at least of taking care of the wet jobs while they do the spreadsheets.

    But we should start talking about it now. It will be immensely difficult to do, like surgically separating Siamese twins joined at the head, but it can be done.

    It will also, let's not kid ourselves, be an immense tragedy, the failure of a 250-year old experiment. But it's unavoidable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  24. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Okay, I don't know much about this. I started reading Mein Kampf a couple of years ago but didn't finish it. I believe absolutely that the United States has the capacity for a fascist-style development but has been very lucky in its geography: here, patriotism -- which is just a place on the spectrum which includes nationalism and then genocidal tribalism -- always was in tension with racism in America, especially after WWII.

    A good example is here.

    I've had lots of arguments with outright racists and neo-Nazis over the years, and a good way to shut their dirty mouths is to introduce into debate a list of America's Black and Hispanic military heroes. What's remarkable about these men, especially the Blacks, is that many of them served with distinction a country in which they were second-class citizens. Perhaps they perceived the future.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  25. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Where do you live where you find so many racist and neo-nazis ?

    Never heard of any of them.

    But we had a tunnel rat in Nam who was an American of Mexican decent and was a gang banger with White Fence gang back in East L.A.

    He disappeared in a VC tunnel oneday. We think he was eaten by a python.

    [​IMG]
     
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