Does Religious Freedom Supercede Gender Identity?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by TheImmortal, Feb 10, 2020.

  1. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    The large majority of the populous in this country are Christian. I myself am Christian. My belief system explicity states “Thou shall not bear false witness.” The Bible consistently teaches us that lying is not of god. We are to separate ourselves from lies and deceit. Lies and deceit are, according to biblical teaching, sinful and the purview of satan.

    With that being said there is a movement to make it illegal to consistently refer to someone by the pronoun other than what they believe themselves to be even if their genetic code dictates otherwise. Partially enacted in California’s SB 219. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB219

    So my question is does my belief in a religious doctrine that explicitly prohibits me from deceit and false truths supercede the individual’s gender identity preference and desire to be referred to as something they’re not?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
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  2. Sirius Black

    Sirius Black Well-Known Member

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    Religious freedom allows you to practice your religion. It does not mean you can force others to, but I can help ease your anxiety about this law. The new law is intended to stop discrimination of the elderly who live in nursing homes, not everyone. It is intended to protect them from being persecuted for their LGBT status. Here is the law:

    SB 219, authored by Sen. Wiener, strengthens protections for LGBT seniors living in long-term care facilities against discrimination, such as refusing to use a resident’s preferred name or pronoun, denying admission to a long-term care facility, transferring a resident within a facility or to another facility based on anti-LGBT attitudes of other residents, or evicting or involuntarily discharging a resident from a facility on the basis of their actual or perceived sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or HIV status.
    https://www.eqca.org/sb219-leg/

    Unless discrimination is part of your Religious belief I don't think it will effect you.
     
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  3. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    In fact it also includes the possibility of jail time for someone at the nursing home who refuses to Call a man a woman.

    While you’re correct about freedom of religion doesn’t allow me to force others to follow mine, it also doesn’t allow for others to force me to violate my religious beliefs.

    I’m not forcing them to believe as I. If a man wants to dress as a girl, get surgery to look like one and call himself a woman, go for it. THEY are the ones who are attempting to force others to adhere to their ideological system and violate our religious beliefs by threatening jail time for using the ACCURATE pronoun and stating the truth.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
  4. Sirius Black

    Sirius Black Well-Known Member

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    I have a friend who was named Chester by his parents, he does not want to be called Chester he wants to be called Chip. Am I going to have to atone on judgement day if I don't insist on calling him Chester because that is his name?
    How does the fact that you are insisting on calling someone something that upsets them in an attempt to confront them belittle your religion. You need not dress differently, you need no operations all you have to do is not rub their face in it. See Matthew 5:7
     
  5. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    You’re not helping Chip deceive people and engaging in something you know to be objectively untrue, with that being said, what you will be judged on is between you and God.

    However my faith dictates that I can’t actively and knowingly engage in deceit. And I’m sorry but I’m not going to violate my faith because Chuck wants me to refer to him as a she.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
  6. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    These days it seems nothing supersedes transgender identity. Mayor DeComio tried to pass an ordinance that had fines up to $25,000 for calling a person by the wrong self-identified description. I never heard it it succeeded.
     
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  7. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely yes.
     
  8. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Well-Known Member

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    If a man thinks HE is a woman it's not wrong for anyone to in any context including public service to call him him her or his. Is Not insulting to call people what they are.

    If you are insulted by it you are in the wrong
     
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  9. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Cool, so does that mean Jews should be allowed to kill fortunetellers, Christians can kill homosexuals and Muslims can kill both Christians and Jews?

    You know — since your religion overrules the rights of others... just wondering where the line is drawn?
     
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  10. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What about supporting an adulterous liar that has stolen from the week and infirm? What does your book say about that?
     
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  11. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    They’re all adulterous liars who steal from the weak and infirm. They’re politicians.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
  12. logical1

    logical1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes religious freedom is guaranteed by the First Amendment!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  13. Sirius Black

    Sirius Black Well-Known Member

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    Will you folks look closely at the law:

    SB 219, authored by Sen. Wiener, strengthens protections for LGBT seniors living in long-term care facilities against discrimination, such as refusing to use a resident’s preferred name or pronoun, denying admission to a long-term care facility, transferring a resident within a facility or to another facility based on anti-LGBT attitudes of other residents, or evicting or involuntarily discharging a resident from a facility on the basis of their actual or perceived sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or HIV status.
    https://www.eqca.org/sb219-leg/

    It is about discrimination against the elderly. Are Christians in favor of discrimination against the elderly? Are they in favor of any type of discrimination.

    if the word is used to discriminate against or demean on a person...
     
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  14. Sirius Black

    Sirius Black Well-Known Member

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    Explain how not discriminating against a person or not demeaning a person takes away from your religious freedom. The Bible I read does not tell me to do these things, but I know there is a golden rule about how I treat others.
    You don't have to become transgender, you do not have to believe it is proper. You just have to allow them the same thing you are asking of them; to believe what one wishes to believe and to be left alone.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
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  15. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh, so your holy book doesn’t mention that!
    But it does mention that you should harass others because you because doing the opposite might cause someone less suffering.

    Yes, that all makes perfect sense!
     
  16. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    Sure it does. Give unto Caesar what is Caesars and give unto God what is God’s.”

    You cannot run a country the same way you run your personal life. It doesn’t work that way. You can be charitable but you cannot dictate to everyone else that they MUST be charitable.
     
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  17. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    The intent is not to discriminate or to demean. Just like it’s not the intent to discriminate or demean the person who thinks they’re Napoleon when we don’t refer to him as such. He’s not Napoleon and that man is not a woman.

    It is not our job to validate other people’s delusions.
     
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  18. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you can support a three time adulterous billionaire that is the embodiment of the seven deadly sins but reducing suffering for a person is beyond gods capabilities in your mind?

    Curious...

    Using your logic of “Give unto Caesar what is Caesars”, if the state makes a law — then it is law — and you god has given you a commandment. Do what you will, society will do what we must.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
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  19. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    What a politician does in his private life is of no consequence to me when choosing a president. I’m not choosing a life partner. I’m choosing the policies which will benefit the country.

    And do what you must. We will too.
     
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  20. God & Country

    God & Country Well-Known Member

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    I think as a matter of your own religious beliefs you already know the answer. As a matter of society in general it is not widely accepted especially in it's current form which is whatever these folks say it is and their intent to foist it upon the normal population. Much like the homosexual community it seeks to demand acceptance and to define itself as normal and equivalent to heterosexuality it is neither. Unfortunately there is a segment of heterosexual society that agrees with them but they are few and wrong. No doubt there'll be attempts to get this into the courts like the farcical homosexual marriage thing but it presently doesn't have a consensus nor legal grounds. So until it goes to court, if it ever does, yes, your religious beliefs trump their unreasonable demands and expectations.Think about this, what they are demanding is for the rest of us to completely rearrange society to accommodate them, it's not just the pronouns but our whole vernacular, our language. It's a lot like immigrants who come to the US and refuse to assimilate in any way and demand that we accommodate them instead, hence having to choose to conduct business in English and having to listen to a list of other language options before it finally gets to English. Or how about finding yourself somewhere in your own town where you are not welcome and local businesses will not accommodate you or speak your language. This is insane and so is the whole militant transgender agenda.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
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  21. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    If you're thinking of the ninth commandment, what it actually says is, “Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor”; and when one considers the Jews hidden from the Nazis by Schindler and his like, one sees the omission is not trivial.

    As to the topic, I would only point out that freedom of conscience such as might deter anyone from addressing a man as a woman is hardly the exclusive property of theists.
     
  22. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I'm not obligated to participate in some delusional game.
     
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  23. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [​IMG]
     
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  24. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This isn’t a question of your religious beliefs superseding gender identity, it’s a question of your religious beliefs superseding the law. The bottom line is that none of us get to decide which laws to obey simply based on whether (we say) they go against our religious beliefs (or any other heart-felt beliefs). Laws can’t (shouldn’t!) be made that purposely target specific beliefs or religions, and considerations can be made to account for cases where a particular law might cause difficulties for some but generic laws made with secular purposes should and do apply equally to everyone (even if we might personally disagree with them). That’s how society works.

    Anyway, wouldn’t the principle you’re looking to use also apply in countless other circumstances (and could be abused in countless more)? We could call pretty much anything we disagree with a “lie” and therefore avoid legal and social responsibilities to others. I mean, if my religion prohibited me from supporting false truths and taught me that your religion is false, why would I be required to take account of any of your beliefs at all? :cool:
     
  25. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Oh I remember you! you were making some predictions on how SCOTUS would be deciding some same sex marriage cases on the docket. LoL.
     

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